Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[JTR70]

7/20/16

Fender to tail profile issues.

While wrestling with the apron and top to bottom profile it dawned on me that now was the time to deal with the profile and body taper down the sides.

Not only where these two panels rolling in where they meet but the actual corner of this tail sticks out too far(green arrow)and "dwells" too long for lack of a better term rather than tapering quicker to meet the approach angle of the fender. While I could push the fenders out farther to meet it (and would be welcomed for a hot rod modification)I am already at the outer limits of stock distance away from the chassis as mentioned earlier.

The lower apron section shares the upper tails profile and better illustrates the problem. Actually the problem lies with both panels. while the tail is swinging too wide the end of the fenders are too crowned and tight and are rolling in too soon. I've mounted a ruler at the bottom to give me some mechanical leverage to roll the wired edge in to swing the very end of the fender out to relax the excessive tapered profile.

However when I do that the edge of the fender sucks in where the arrow is. Not enough material there to allow the movement I need so a relief cut is coming.
Out of time....back in a few hours.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, my heart goes out to you. Such a bummer. I've noticed over the years, that fitting a single reproduction part to an original part often requires some massaging to fit correctly, and I'm not talking about just body pieces. When a reproduction part is fitted to another reproduction part, things almost always require creative modifications. When many layers of repro parts are used, such as yours, things get really stinky. I hate to harp on this, but my next step would be to fit the mock up trans, engine, muffler, and suspension. I would leave them installed until all the sheet metal is tacked in place. So many things have been replaced back there that measurements can begin to be almost meaningless. An unnoticed mm here and there, then you're going backwards. If everything fits well, then you have verified everything. If not, you could save countless hours.
When I worked for George Barris years ago, the Chipmunk mobile (if you're old enough you may remember Simon, Theodore, and ALVIN!!!!) came through the shop for storage. The front suspension was held up with hidden 2x4's. I was appalled at the solution.
Justin, please don't take this as criticism. I have never attempted what you are doing, and think you are just amazing with your accomplishments on this project. Just trying to give some ideas.
Jack

[JTR70]

No, not at all Jack. I welcome and appreciate your suggestions as they have already helped to keep me on track. The tire and suspension mock up immediately comes to mind. You may have never attempted a conversion like this or on a chassis as naked and rotted as this one started out as but then again neither have I. That aside your decades of experience with these cars and all the various aspects in their repair far exceed anything I've done to date. I'm always open to new suggestions as "eyes" from afar might very well see something I don't as I'm "down in it" up close; especially expert eyes. So my sincerest thanks to you once again!


You're right everything and I mean every part of the rear end of this car is a reproduction so the measurements are only gross approximations at this point.

I was absolutely going to take your advice and mock up the engine with a muffler. What was holding me up was the installment of that push-rod engine tray mounted to the chassis. With it now out of the way I'll have a drivetrain mocked up before the week's out. I have an old block and heads but that's about it.

For the rest of it I'm heading over to my buddies tomorrow as he has an A-muffler and the engine mounted perimeter closing tin. I'll post my findings after I get it all set up. I may have to go with that 2X4 repair you were talking about. Thank you Jack!
Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, Stock T2 exhaust exit holes on the muffler (the ones that use "S pipes") are in a different location than the so called "Sport" twin straight tip muffler used on T1 and some preA. Sport exits are much lower on the can to allow apron clearance.
Are you coming out for the 356 Club concourse in Dana Point tomorrow? You're welcome to spend Sunday night at my place, if so. About 4 miles away. This goes to anyone else as well. Just let me know via email.
ifix356@Juno.com

[JTR70]

Dana Point is tomorrow? I tell you, if you're not watching it the time just gets away. Looks like next year then; I said that last year! Thank you for that really nice offer just the same Jack, I appreciate that! I do plan on making it down for your end of the year party so I hope to catch up with you guys then.

Funny you mentioned that as my buddy was able to loan me this super rusty original T1 "sport" muffler which has been on his Speedster(my reference car)since the early 60's. J-tubes and perimeter tins to complete the picture for the mock up.

Pre-fit before test fit into the car.

Ready to go. Time to see how bad I messed this up.

Much to my surprise and relief everything seemed to fit just fine.

I broke it all down and installed the trans, block and parts separately since the car is so high and the motor too bulky for me solo.

Passed the first test. No clearance issues with the base tins.

The consistency and spacing of the gap all the way around could not of been better.

I at first thought the base gap might be too big but a test with a seal laid those concerns to rest.

Engine perimeter tin fitment test complete. Now for the exhaust pipe clearance .

It was nice to see this car with something that resembled an engine back here and it seems to fit.

Clearance away from the lip of the apron was coming in at 7mm. Not quite the 1/4 inch that Jack likes to see but there are many variables here to account for. (note the corner of the tail skin leaning against the wall. I've had to cut both sides free to adjust their approach angles. Will show that next)

Again the trans mounts are new and fully dressed engine good for at least another 150LBS. will definitely hang lower widening this initial distance. Also too this muffler is worked. Its old, rusty and definitely had some brushes with the pavement but it clears and the comparison measurements at the frame between my coupe and this car where within MM's of each other. I think its there.

One thing for sure is that if I hadn't cut the apron free and moved it up a quarter of an inch no way, no how would this muffler have come even close to fitting.

Jack, thanks again for suggesting this as I would not have performed this test otherwise. It answered a lot of questions and now I can resume work on the tail with confidence.
Justin

[John Pierce]

Justin,

What a relief for you to know that everything is fitting! Phew. And thank for the documentation of how it all fits together. It's been quite the process to get that metal to fit correctly and it's coming along so nicely.

John

[roy mawbey]

Well done Justin, I bet that made your day!!!

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Whew
Bet you might have popped a cold one after this.
Phil

[JTR70]

Thanks a lot you guys! It was a huge relief and one of those rare occasions where I felt like I actually won on the drive home. That doesn't happen too often at least not with me. Thanks once again!
Justin

Below is rest of the post on previous work performed before Jack set me straight on getting that drivetrain mocked up.








Hated to do it but went ahead and relief cut the end of the fender to allow the lower corner of the fender to swing in at the rolled lip and out at the end. Still not perfect but it was beginning to cooperate.

Even with this contour improvement the lower apron still swung too wide. Again I wouldn't mind at all for wider tire clearance but I'm shooting for stock or near stock.

No choice here either but to cut this corner free for shortening and approach angle adjustment. I cut it through the bumper exits to reduce welding.

remounted with a softer approach toward the fender.

Had to be overlapped to achieve the angle I was after. (green arrow)

New approach angle with upper tail installed to highlight the change. Again I just need the corners of this tail to "turn" a little sooner like the apron is now doing.


Again the corner just hangs too long and should taper smoother at least with the section below the new relief cut.

A scary deal but these corners would need to be cut free to adjust their approach angle like the apron.
That, up next. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

7/28/16

Adjusting corners of the tail for smoother contour.

Scared and sad all at the same time as I cut through the weld joint on this corner but unavoidable.

corner set screwed onto the fender to establish my pre-cut baseline again. Next was testing out various approach angles for that magical transition off the fender I'm after.

After some a bit of ceremony and perserverance I was slowly closing in on that tapered angle. At least from the clamps on down for starters.

best initial fitment is a tapered overlap. A casualty of this might be the outer tail light hole position but I think I can fudge it back into the right spot if needed since the change will be slight.

Panels are still rolling in as they meet but nothing like before. The overlap is creating some of it but I think after they're sheared even this can be chased out the rest of the way.

A lot of free styling going on here so I'm constantly referring to my coupe and this OG quarter to keep it "legal".

Gradually and very cautiously improving the fit and shape a section at a time it seems. It soon dawned on me that it was best to stop here for now and move over to the right side to keep it all progressing evenly. Repeat right side next.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

7/29/16

Repeat process on the right side and set the center of the panel.

Same deal, relief cut to the panel to allow the bottom corner to relax and turn a little.

I am getting same and consistent fitment issue as with the left side. Sort of a silver lining I suppose as its at least even and consistently wrong back here on both sides.

Right side cap also removed for repositioning with the fender.

After some trial fitments with the right side cap it became clear that I had to stop where I was at and get this center panel done and set into its final-final adjusted position then work outward from there.

This meant addressing and going back to the horrifically tedious job of dealing with mating flanges to get the skin lined up with the closed lid.

Through my many earlier attempts of trying to set this upper lip against the lid I have a cut and tacked mess in here. Getting this correct and dialed in has truly been one of the hardest and most frustrating aspects of the body-build so far. That's why I could not emphasize to Drew enough about how lucky he is to have a donor clip with all this mating flange substructure set and in there.

The photo above showed the skin too high; I had no choice had to cut it again and take a few MM's out to compensate for that.

I've been subconsciously avoiding this chore because I knew what an ass kicker it was going to be but I grinded through.

best average gap and final alignment with the lid set here.

I'm still not out of the woods with these flanges but its close. The center is set but some adjustment remains at the corners. Like I said it is a bitch to get both sides dialed in for "skin alignment" against the closed lid to continue the line smoothly.

Finally got the entire run of the tail opening to line up with the lid. Very relieved that the right corner which was always low against the lid came up without a ton of ceremony.

Gaps and contour very close but not 100% perfect. It will require some lead to take it the rest of the way but not much. Trying to reduce the need for filler was a big part of this fight. Now I can work outward to reset the apron and the corners.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

How true your comment is regarding the original rear end Drew managed to obtain. The amount of work to get all those curves in line and correct is so difficult. Many would have given up on that chore long ago. You have the patience that really helps.

I did find some factory lead on mine underneath the rear number plate area towards the bottom valance, not surprised really they did well to get the 356 body done at all in a production line sense all those years ago.

Well done again. Great photo's too.

Roy

[MMW]

The amount of work that is going into this is mind boggling. The owner of the car is very lucky to have someone like you making it right. I couldn't even imagine me trying something like this as I would of given up long ago. My hat is off to you Justin!

[JTR70]

Thanks again Roy! Yeah, I can't emphasize enough how frustrating those flanges are to dial in. That area of lead you found on your car was the attachment point for the rear body brace. The lead smoothed out the spot welds there.

Very much appreciate your post Mic, thank you! As you well have imagined its been a very tough slog. The thought of quitting gets very inviting at times I have to admit but that won't be my call to make. I'll see it through unless the Doc has a change of plans.
My sincere thanks to you both once again!
Justin
7/30/16
Raising the rear apron.

The previous entry was right about the time Jack chimed in again to remind me of the importance of mocking up an engine block in this car.

I had a rough guestimation of how high I needed to adjust it but nothing concrete. With this Exhaust mock up however I had all the confirmation I needed to proceed with full confidence on where it should be. (thanks again Jack!)

With everything taken into account I removed a solid 1/2 inch strip of metal. I even fudged it a touch higher just to make sure.

Slowly and carefully tacking the center section back onto the tail in its new position. Attaching and repositioning the end caps would be next.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[bbspdstr]

Could be worse.

http://www.bbakerent.com/spgm/gal/Speedster%20front%20end%20replacement/spdstr.JPG

Years ago, I tried to buy that shell just for the rear half. Here is that same '56 Speedster's excellent rear now:



Begs the question...."why do we do this?" (Yeah, I know the answer and it does NOT concern money.)

Bruce