Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[Don C]

Justin you just can't win, bummer. Why don't you take a break, enjoy the holidays and tackle it later.

[merbesfield]

That looks very challenging to correct. Maybe u could start by cutting some slits in the ridges/fl ages to allow it to flex then make adjustments. Anyway u cut it, looks like it will require some serious manipulation. Time for a beer.

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

I have been backwards and forwards looking at those repro parts. To me the look miles out, very pretty the curves look great but miles out.
Do you know how they inspect their parts are producing them? I presume they have original ' master parts ' they compare the repro parts too??

To me the errors looks so great I cannot see how you will massage these area's without cutting. Surely thats not correct? What would a guy do who has no reference to work from with cut out original parts do here?? The fit of the bonnet lid determines the cowling shape to degree either for coupe or speedster. When measured my straight edge 55mm out from the windscreen on the coupe there is a drop of 55mm to the fender top surface. Am I wrong is the speedster really any different.

Possibly the photos sort of magnify your problem???

I attach a couple of photos I took to help a 356 guy a while back. Of course you have the Carrera to look at yourself.

I can't wait to see if you can get round this situation.

Roy











Not meaning to clog up your thread Justin I am just confused by your panels you have purchased!! Roy

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

The drop was 52 - 53 mm on both sides measured 55mm measured out from the windscreen deco trim. (Sorry I put 55mm in error for the drop)

Roy ( Enjoy your Christmas one and all )

[John Pierce]

Justin,

They do look way out. Sleep on it as I know you will figure out how to fix the problems. You've got the skills......all it takes now is time. Thanks for keeping us updated.


John

[JTR70]

Thanks Don, Actually these photos are well over a week old (been bad about updating)so I have had a good while to study and ponder what the next move was going to be.

Right Mark, cutting it at the flanges is the only way to "break its back" so to speak which will allow the movement I need. I had spent a little time as well deciding where those would be.

Thanks for the detail and photos Roy! Please don't ever feel like your "clogging this post" any input an additional photos will only help me and perhaps the "next guy" along. So thanks again! Tell me if this photo helps:

Weather its coupe or speedster the basic shape and contour remains pretty much identical until it approaches the windshield. As you said earlier it just continues the line of the hood. As you can see this lower speedster W/S frame snugs right up to the shape of my coupe's cowl.

John, thank you for the vote of confidence I appreciate that! Honestly this cowl is really testing me as I have found yet another critical problem this evening which I'll detail later.

Spent a good deal of time checking and rechecking just to confirm and identify what exactly the problems were. More photos of that process:

Hood was hinge mounted and the cowl was slid into its best position under a mild bit of load due to its strong arch. This was the best alignment I could get.

Just so I knew in my mind that our donor hood was correct I tested it against another original "A" hood with the exact same result. The hood is right.

To reconfirm I installed my original Speedster dash and as you can see the fitment is a natural. We know that fitments with new panels can vary from car to car but only within a few MM's. Here's proof positive of that they don't horrendously vary; we have an original speedster dash on a coupe chassis with an unknown original hood and they all work pretty closely with one another.

First relief cut was made directly on the leading edge. Flange is clamped and the distance mirrors exactly the discrepancy with the hood.

There are also some contour issues with the edge of the hood so cutting it here allows me to fix that as well. Even with the flanges cut to the center here, the panel itself was worked and stretched so it still refused to comply.

A relief cut down the middle was needed to get it to finally lay down.

Though there is a lot of fine tuning the basic shape and contour with the hood improved immediately.

Direct comparison with my original. The correct shapes seems almost flat compared to what it started out as. Thanks for looking! Justin

[John Pierce]

Ouch!! It hurts to see see a pristine piece needing to be massaged like that to get it to fit correctly. If you don't mind me asking: were your new pieces hand formed or were they stamped out using templates from the originals?

It's looking much better. Nothing that a little welding won't fix at this point though it's frustrating!

JP

[roy mawbey]

Thanks Justin for those new photos!!! It is clear to me now and your efforts so far are really good. But you have the experience and the will to solve it. My goodness without the old parts or the coupe someone else might have just presumed welded it in then bought a second hand hood and expected wonders. I realise every repro part probably needs some work for it to fit as we have already seen in your excellent posts but Justin that ' bow' in the cowling was so obvious to see why didn't that get checked??

There is so much more to expect in restoration. Valuable info for those just starting. Well done for thinking hard no doubt on what to slice.

Roy

[bbspdstr]

I just smile
I get flashes of Monty Python's "No one EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!"
Customers will endure the foibles of the parts not fitting or needing to be made....at least to the point of this thread......but hang on to your hats boys and girls, the same thing happens where it's less understood or anticipated by even the most jaded restorers....da-da-da-DA: "assembly."

Regardless of differences in panels and body fit, it always seems that those who provide unoriginal parts never need to install them, whatever part they are selling, door handles to hood handles to tail lights....to see if 1) they fit and 2) they are complete, or 3) the wiring is the correct color...etc.

It's costly when time is being billed hourly to sort these things through...and it's best done while you go along... than after everything is painted.

It's obvious that one must get a shell finished to primer and then start fitting EVERYTHING before there is paint...and that is most true for an open car.

"Gee, Justin...why can't you just bend the trunk lid to the curve of the cowl....I'm sure you can get an expandable seal that'll fit!" In 'the' business' we hear all the time: "Why's it take so long and cost so much?"

There are a few noted restorers that have decided it's financially more prudent to specialize in one or more segments and NOT do the whole enchilada...so soon, there will be no one to assemble a restored 356 other than a patient, healthy, limber, experienced, savvy, common sense grounded, well-versed retiree (with all the right books) who will do one 356 at a time for spare change and 'something to do.'

Here is an example,
A nice trim part for a Cabriolet that was originally hammered into an original rear bow.
Now, the repro is a really soft alloy of aluminum and the bow wood is too hard, so no more banging them on.

The soft aluminum shows externally where the bent nail was crimped into the extruded channel. That must be filed, sanded and polished AFTER the urethane glue sets for a couple of days after filling the drilled holes to capture the Dremel-nicked nails and holding it all evenly and firmly with a ratchet-strap...to have an "original" (looking) result.

That's over 6 hours of work to install a really quite useless part but needs to be on the better Cabs to be "original."








-Bruce

[JTR70]

Making the initial cuts into this new piece was hard to do John but it eventually got a point where just studying it and trying new a different mount angles was yielding no improvement. These are handmade panels which are shaped and fitted against some sort of metal buck he has constructed.

Thanks Roy, you are so right without an original examples on hand I would be at a huge disadvantage.

My only savior here is that I am fortunate enough to have a complete and original Speedster dash and cowl assembly loose here on my floor for direct fitment and comparison. Without this piece I'd be second guessing myself like crazy but because its here, I know definitively what is right and what is wrong with this new panel.

Bruce, I could not agree more, even with my limited exposure. Also your statement about certain restorers specializing in only one aspect of 356 restoration to reduce the aggravation; Victor Miles immediately comes to mind. The cabriolet top strip is a perfect example of how old techniques must be adjusted to make what's available nowadays work and still look nice once installed. Great job engineering its installation BTW!

12/25/14
Dash cowl prep continued

These original coupe dash related items are identical to those used on the Speedster so if you're doing this conversion make sure you carefully harvest these because they will eventually be reused and needed. They are: Right and left defroster horns, windshield wiper assembly bracket and the steering column reinforcement strut.

This is the Original Wiper bracket from my coupster project which I welded on a few years back. This bracket is identical weather it originally came from a coupe an or open car as they all come with the tension rod mount tab.

I had not taken my own advice and carelessly cut the mounting feet/tabs years ago. (live and learn) Fabricating and installing new ones here and making sure the mounted approach angle is correct.

The top of the wiper bracket will eventually mount directly to this rear inner flange of the cowl. Trimming away the excess here to match the width of my original dash.

Donor wiper bracket screw mounted against the trunk bulkhead wall and clamped to the upper flange for an initial test fit here.

Remaining flange running to and just inside of the A-pillar.

The flange on my original dash shows the same. So far so good...

Next major issue>

With the rear flange of the cowl mounted to the wiper bracket its now too short or narrow.

When I move the cowl forward back into alignment with the edge of the eventual hood the wiper bracket now overshoots the flange it needs to attach to. There is no forward adjustment for the bracket itself only some height adjustment. The distance from the trunk bulkhead to the top of this bracket is a factory "constant" and crosses all 356 models closed or open car. So to be right the cowl's flange must come back to the bracket. Double checking against my original dash would be next.

Center measurement between the flange shoulders comes out just shy of 6 3/4 inches.

Same measurement taken against my Original cowl is just shy of 7 1/2 inches. New part is about a full 3/4 of an inch too narrow. As Roy said earlier this is where having original parts for reference keeps you on the right path. I'd be so screwed without this original example here.

To mount the back of the cowl correctly this shortfall will also have to be addressed.

Here is my remedy. I'm going to cap and extend this new cowl with an original section. Going this route kills a lot of birds with one stone such as the center contour issue, the width, the trunk lid gap and a few other things I get into next. Anyway this is where I'm at so far.
Thanks for stopping by and Merry Christmas!
Justin

[JTR70]

12/27/14

More front cowl flange cutting and relieving.

Last of the major cutting to relax and correct the profile is to these crazy "dog legged" corner flanges. This stretched and shrunk section of flange is holding and dictating this shape which doesn't quite match the original dash profile. Due to this flange this corner couldn't be forced down either.

This initial cut short-circuited its strength allowing me to push it more into alignment with the original dash profile. Cutting it the rest of the way would be next.

Remainder of the flange cut which immediately allowed the skin to be easily clamped to the old dash slowly giving me what I want. So relieved to see how that Original lower Windshield frame was now fitting.

Left the flange alone to show where the profile shape started.

I was very tentative about cutting this panel up even more but after this mock-up I knew it was my only answer.

Repeat on right side.

Right flange also now cut with skin relaxed into position.

Original dash and original chrome strip are finally beginning to agree with this piece.

Tomorrow I'll begin setting the skin to hug the shape of the Lower W/S frame shape closer, after that I'll rebuild the flanges to lock in that desired new contour. Thanks for looking! Justin

[John Pierce]

Looking much better. Were these panels made on a buck? If so, I would have thought that they would have fit much better. Are you able to tell us what the manufacturer of these panels had to say when you showed the issues? I bet the panels were not inexpensive.

[JOP]

Hmm, as you look at the OEM and replica part it is just like they cut it to short and forgot about the xtra metal towards the hood. You said 7"-1/2" on OEM between the flange and it fits the replica full lenght !
Also it seems that the metal havent been "taken/worked on" to get the "arch" lower.....
If it was done on a buck it should have been closer to the OEM size I guess.
But good work and nice informative photos for us couchbuilders enjoying the Xmas holiday

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

I just could not see in my head how you could resolve it. You have managed that extreamly well so far. Still the job of adding the piece to make the length as original but you will do that for sure.

However... Justin, the supplier needs to know either with a post of this thread or explanation. As we can see another guy with out any references would fail to fit the items for sure. The wiper motor mounting would have been the last straw or would for me

Well done on the work

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Justin
You have much more patience than I would with that repro part. Fortunately you had a lot of other parts to compare with which most of us do not. Looking forward to the finished panel. Lots of hard work so far.
Bruce
You are scaring me with all the parts fitting during assembly. Fortunately I will be using very few repro parts, as Foam Car will have some patina with many original parts. My problem will be fitting many original parts to my body repair(rust and accident). Good time to start checking my door handles and tail lites.

Phil