58367 The $75 Junkyard Carrera coupe restoration

[JTR70]

I know Mark, I'm beginning to question my sanity. Since I am following my painter friends advice to use a sealer before final paint my game plan has changed a bit. I am now compelled to thin this work out as much as I can to make way for it.

Thanks Jack, yes, this area along with the back of the decklid and hood hinges were just brushed in as well.

5/18/15

Blocking continues and finishing out small loose parts along the way that need to be silver.



All that remains to paint are the body plugs and the access cover for the steering box. Only the big stuff will remain after that.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[merbesfield]

You my friend are soooo close! It must be hard to sleep at times just the thought of driving that car. Of course with the work hours you put in sleep should come easily. Thanks for posting.

[Jack Staggs]

Looking quite nice, Justin!
FWIW, the D plates for the upper trans hoop bolts were sprayed black enamel, with no metal prep, at least in my experience.

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

I presume and hope the Reutter chassis and paint colour plates will stay riveted in place and you will mask them? That will be then just about the only remaining part on your car where the original paint is still underneath something

I have never removed mine and for the first time my items look less faded than yours Go on blame it on the Las Vagas sun!



Roy

[JR]

Very neat and clean after all these years Roy!
Sometimes there isn't any sun in Vegas.
I heard they had a monsoon last Monday, the day after I left town!

Dick

[neilbardsley]

Very neat and clean after all these years Roy!
Sometimes there isn't any sun in Vegas.
I heard they had a monsoon last Monday, the day after I left town!

Dick

It always rains in Vega for me!!

[JTR70]

Thanks Mark, so close yet so far.

Thank you Jack! Yes, I do remember these plates being in just flat black with no primer as it was peeling off in good sized chunks.

Hi Roy, yes the original paint still lurks under those ID plates. Now that you mentioned it I'm a bit curious as to how close this new color they are in matches with the original. I guess I'll never know...
The ID plates have definitely faded a bit as this car was not pampered like yours and was exposed to the desert elements for the first 35 years.

Yes, the summer time here is our monsoon season and the cloud cover provides a welcomed break from the direct summer sunlight, however the trade-off is higher humidity. Thanks again you guys! Justin

[Phil Planck]

I just ran across what appears to be a good discussion on painting 912s on the 912 BBS. Not being a paint expert, I cannot attest to the validity of the below post, but it sure reads like he knows of what he writes. Thought this would be as good a place as any to post this as Justin is getting or already into this phase:

Bruce Schmid post on 912 forum

First off, luster is not lost as a result of a car being painted in single stage paint. I maintain a small fleet of Porsches that I have done over the years for various clients. I have single stage paints 20 years old that look as good as they did the day they left my shop. All paints, no matter what brand, will shrink in time. The shrinkage is caused not by the pigments of the paint material itself but the substrates under the paint, ie, bondo, primers, sealers, etc. This is why I always sort of cringe when I see these cars or any car get painted in a very short time period. The substrates need to fully cure to eliminate a good percentage of the shrinkage which will occur. I usually let the last primer coat cure for 6-8 weeks before application of the color. My 66 has been curing in it's final coat of primer now for over a year Polishing is a whole different critter. Shrinkage can cause two different negative effects in the overall appearance of a paint job. If there has been a lot of body work done on the car and a lot of primer has been applied, it is of utmost importance that the primer fully cures. Why you ask, first, you can block that primer until your hands fall off and the body is perfectly straight, but if the primer has not fully cured the primer will shrink and it is possible that at the edges of the bondo a very slight flaw will appear. It looks like a very slight dent in the body. The second flaw that occurs in paint due to the primer not fully curing is that sand scratches will slowly appear in the top coat. The latter of the two problems can be resolved by wet sanding and polishing. The first flaw cannot be removed with polishing. One last point about primer, when I'm blocking the primer I always block down until I begin to see the lower substrate but not completely through the primer. As I begin to see either bondo or metal, I stop. The reason for this is that you want to remove as much of the primer as possible (the less primer, the less shrinkage) without sanding through the primer. Sanding through primer will usually create high spots on the surface. I usually block sand and primer a car 3-4 times. I polish every car that I paint. My clients expect perfection and that is not accomplished without polishing. I don't care how good a painter is, the difference between a non polished and polished car is huge. My polishing process consists of first block sanding with water using 1000 grit. I then use 2000 grit on a sponge block. The block is used to cut through the texture of the paint and the sponge block is used as it conforms really good with the shape of the curved Porsche body. I use a foam polishing pad and usually polish a car 3-4 times before it leaves my shop. I could go on and on as to the reason why but I'm getting hungry for breakfast, sorry. Last subject, single stage versus two stage. It had been mentioned above that if someone is trying to sell you a single stage paint their trying to save you money. My single stage paints, depending on the amount of rust repair (that's truly what drives the prices high) run from $20K up to $75K and can take from two to three years to complete. I don't look at those amounts as saving anybody money. I charge on a time and material basis. I spend anywhere from 200 hours as a low to over 1000 hours on a given car. I do spray two stage paint when needed. All metallic colors require a clear coat. The nature of the paint industry is such that I don't believe that single stage metallic paints exist anymore. I could be mistaken but I have not shot one in many years. The reason why new cars are all sprayed with two stage paint regardless of the color being a solid shade or metallic has nothing to do with luster or depth. If I placed a polished single stage ruby red next to a polished two stage ruby red car, I would challenge anybody to be able to tell me which one was the single stage and which one was the two stage. Back to the subject at hand, the automobile manufacturers started spraying only two stage paints for two reasons. One, to meet environmental regulations and two they realized that they saw a new profit margin. By that I mean they could now spray a car with less of the expensive pigment (color) and top coat it with the less expensive clear. And they could add a surcharge on the billing invoice for the clear coated finish. Once again it was all about the bottom line. Okay, enough rambling on, it's time for food.

[merbesfield]

I just ran across what appears to be a good discussion on painting 912s on the 912 BBS. Not being a paint expert, I cannot attest to the validity of the below post, but it sure reads like he knows of what he writes. Thought this would be as good a place as any to post this as Justin is getting or already into this phase:

Bruce Schmid post on 912 forum

First off, luster is not lost as a result of a car being painted in single stage paint. I maintain a small fleet of Porsches that I have done over the years for various clients. I have single stage paints 20 years old that look as good as they did the day they left my shop. All paints, no matter what brand, will shrink in time. The shrinkage is caused not by the pigments of the paint material itself but the substrates under the paint, ie, bondo, primers, sealers, etc. This is why I always sort of cringe when I see these cars or any car get painted in a very short time period. The substrates need to fully cure to eliminate a good percentage of the shrinkage which will occur. I usually let the last primer coat cure for 6-8 weeks before application of the color. My 66 has been curing in it's final coat of primer now for over a year Polishing is a whole different critter. Shrinkage can cause two different negative effects in the overall appearance of a paint job. If there has been a lot of body work done on the car and a lot of primer has been applied, it is of utmost importance that the primer fully cures. Why you ask, first, you can block that primer until your hands fall off and the body is perfectly straight, but if the primer has not fully cured the primer will shrink and it is possible that at the edges of the bondo a very slight flaw will appear. It looks like a very slight dent in the body. The second flaw that occurs in paint due to the primer not fully curing is that sand scratches will slowly appear in the top coat. The latter of the two problems can be resolved by wet sanding and polishing. The first flaw cannot be removed with polishing. One last point about primer, when I'm blocking the primer I always block down until I begin to see the lower substrate but not completely through the primer. As I begin to see either bondo or metal, I stop. The reason for this is that you want to remove as much of the primer as possible (the less primer, the less shrinkage) without sanding through the primer. Sanding through primer will usually create high spots on the surface. I usually block sand and primer a car 3-4 times. I polish every car that I paint. My clients expect perfection and that is not accomplished without polishing. I don't care how good a painter is, the difference between a non polished and polished car is huge. My polishing process consists of first block sanding with water using 1000 grit. I then use 2000 grit on a sponge block. The block is used to cut through the texture of the paint and the sponge block is used as it conforms really good with the shape of the curved Porsche body. I use a foam polishing pad and usually polish a car 3-4 times before it leaves my shop. I could go on and on as to the reason why but I'm getting hungry for breakfast, sorry. Last subject, single stage versus two stage. It had been mentioned above that if someone is trying to sell you a single stage paint their trying to save you money. My single stage paints, depending on the amount of rust repair (that's truly what drives the prices high) run from $20K up to $75K and can take from two to three years to complete. I don't look at those amounts as saving anybody money. I charge on a time and material basis. I spend anywhere from 200 hours as a low to over 1000 hours on a given car. I do spray two stage paint when needed. All metallic colors require a clear coat. The nature of the paint industry is such that I don't believe that single stage metallic paints exist anymore. I could be mistaken but I have not shot one in many years. The reason why new cars are all sprayed with two stage paint regardless of the color being a solid shade or metallic has nothing to do with luster or depth. If I placed a polished single stage ruby red next to a polished two stage ruby red car, I would challenge anybody to be able to tell me which one was the single stage and which one was the two stage. Back to the subject at hand, the automobile manufacturers started spraying only two stage paints for two reasons. One, to meet environmental regulations and two they realized that they saw a new profit margin. By that I mean they could now spray a car with less of the expensive pigment (color) and top coat it with the less expensive clear. And they could add a surcharge on the billing invoice for the clear coated finish. Once again it was all about the bottom line. Okay, enough rambling on, it's time for food.

I have had several conversations via email over the years w Bruce and he has always been extremely helpful and gracious regarding any questions I may have had, which were numerous. He clearly knows his stuff and was very through w his answers. Very nice guy.

[bbspdstr]

A few personal observations (other than "how much alcohol and/or recreational drugs does any painter consume before painting?"):

I just ran across what appears to be a good discussion on painting 912s on the 912 BBS:

First off, luster is not lost as a result of a car being painted in single stage paint. No, but a "candy-coated" look is NOT a 356 "look."


I have single stage paints 20 years old that look as good as they did the day they left my shop. All paints, no matter what brand, will shrink in time. The shrinkage is caused not by the pigments of the paint material itself but the substrates under the paint, ie, bondo, primers, sealers, etc. I just repainted a 356 I had painted 38 years ago with an acrylic enamel, single stage. It looked fine to old eyes, but a magnifying glass showed tiny cracks called "micro-checking" in the surface. That was NOT from primer or coating applied too quickly on top of each other.

The substrates need to fully cure to eliminate a good percentage of the shrinkage which will occur. I usually let the last primer coat cure for 6-8 weeks before application of the color. My 66 has been curing in it's final coat of primer now for over a year. Interesting that he is blessed with owners who really don't want their cars. We don't use many high VOC products any more and everything is formulated for production shops...fast! Where is this guy? I let the sun cure whatever, whenever I can. We can "push" a cure in the shop with infrared heating, but hey, "time is money."

Polishing is a whole different critter. We need to be aware that polishing generates heat, often exacerbating any issue under the top coatings.

Shrinkage can cause two different negative effects in the overall appearance of a paint job. If there has been a lot of body work done on the car and a lot of primer has been applied, it is of utmost importance that the primer fully cures. Why you ask, first, you can block that primer until your hands fall off and the body is perfectly straight, but if the primer has not fully cured the primer will shrink and it is possible that at the edges of the bondo a very slight flaw will appear. It looks like a very slight dent in the body. The second flaw that occurs in paint due to the primer not fully curing is that sand scratches will slowly appear in the top coat. The latter of the two problems can be resolved by wet sanding and polishing. The first flaw cannot be removed with polishing. This is important and true. The top coat is only as good as what's under it. Shrinkage in primer can ruin a job if there is not enough color coat to sand and polish to make the shrinkage and "tunneling" disappear. Filling deep sandpaper scratches with primer can "bridge" and then shrink deeply when solvents soften the bridge.

I won't get into "thermo cure" and "thermo set" but will say that since we are using poly- or acrylic- urethanes and polyesters for primers and top coats, the "cure time" is days to be safe, not months. Even lacquer "back in the day", both primers and top coats, with an evaporation of the Volitile Organic Compounds (VOC) could be sanded within a few hours after spraying and then put in the sun (or baking booth)for a day and then topcoated.


One last point about primer, when I'm blocking the primer I always block down until I begin to see the lower substrate but not completely through the primer. As I begin to see either bondo or metal, I stop. The reason for this is that you want to remove as much of the primer as possible (the less primer, the less shrinkage) without sanding through the primer. Sanding through primer will usually create high spots on the surface. I usually block sand and primer a car 3-4 times. I polish every car that I paint. My clients expect perfection and that is not accomplished without polishing. I don't care how good a painter is, the difference between a non polished and polished car is huge. My polishing process consists of first block sanding with water using 1000 grit. I then use 2000 grit on a sponge block. The block is used to cut through the texture of the paint and the sponge block is used as it conforms really good with the shape of the curved Porsche body. I use a foam polishing pad and usually polish a car 3-4 times before it leaves my shop. All good, but "Bondo"? Just kidding...it's a VERY rare 356 that gets only lead anymore. I'm sure plastic fillers are somewhere on almost all the show cars at Pebble Beach. There are pre-polish sanding grits that exceed 3000. The "polishing" process is just making smaller and smaller scratches until you can't see them and the surface appears to have a flawless shine. Debris is the enemy! Cleanliness is next to shiny-ness.

Last subject, single stage versus two stage. It had been mentioned above that if someone is trying to sell you a single stage paint their trying to save you money. My single stage paints, depending on the amount of rust repair (that's truly what drives the prices high) run from $20K up to $75K and can take from two to three years to complete. I don't look at those amounts as saving anybody money. I charge on a time and material basis. I spend anywhere from 200 hours as a low to over 1000 hours on a given car. I do spray two stage paint when needed. All metallic colors require a clear coat. The nature of the paint industry is such that I don't believe that single stage metallic paints exist anymore. I could be mistaken but I have not shot one in many years. The reason why new cars are all sprayed with two stage paint regardless of the color being a solid shade or metallic has nothing to do with luster or depth. If I placed a polished single stage ruby red next to a polished two stage ruby red car, I would challenge anybody to be able to tell me which one was the single stage and which one was the two stage. Back to the subject at hand, the automobile manufacturers started spraying only two stage paints for two reasons. One, to meet environmental regulations and two they realized that they saw a new profit margin. By that I mean they could now spray a car with less of the expensive pigment (color) and top coat it with the less expensive clear. And they could add a surcharge on the billing invoice for the clear coated finish. Once again it was all about the bottom line. Let's add the bottom line of paint companies not offering much in the way of single stage paints because body shops don't use them much anymore since most newer cars are two-stage base/clear. Add to that tints for old car formulas don't exist, so every color needed for a 356 needs to be reformulated in whatever chemistry is available.... that day....AND/OR go to base/clear and risk the final "Look" not being like you stepped back into 1950 through 1965. (OK, or when 912s were being made after that)

Overall, good stuff. Touched a few nerves with me, but my opinions are personal and only added for added interest. I began making old Speedsters all one color with the help of friends while in Art School in the mid-'60s. The formula was one case of Krylon spray bombs to one case of the cheapest (but still drinkable) beer. Unmask the newspaper we used and "flip" of an average of $100 profit! What do I know.......or any Bruce, for that matter.....

-Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Bruce
Thanks for chiming in. Remember, this guy is talking about crappy 912s not 356s. As you know, I bought an all original 69 912 last winter. The build quality is nowhere near the 356. While not having seen many original, un-repainted 356s, this 912s paint job leaves a lot to be desired. The hood in particular has many "unacceptable" paint flaws by most peoples standards.

Phil

[JTR70]

Thanks guys, I agree with Bruce and Bruce B., there's a lot of universal truth in there especially as to concerns of shrinkages in multiple layers of bodywork which I most certainly have.

A fortunate thing for me in being so slow on this car is that the last of the tracer paint is at least a couple of months old with other sections of the car approaching 2 years. What I'm blocking down now has had more than enough time to cook off and do its thing. Also this final sanding is helping to allow any more solvents to escape that might still be in there.

I don't know about elsewhere but in Nevada you can still buy single stage in any color you want. You can get it in enamel(that's what I used for the tracer paint that's on the car now) or you can step up to poly-urethane in single stage. I've worked way too hard on this body and though not original I wanted this car to shine so I picked two-stage.
Justin

[356hunter]

Justin, what oil tank are you using with the Polopolus motor and what size fittings, oil lines for project.

Michael

[JTR70]

Hi Michael, Thanks for joining and Welcome!

I'm going to run its stock Carrera oil tank and will plumb it to reach over to the other side of the motor. If this was a push-rod car originally I'd have used the 911 tank which mounts on the correct side of the car for this engine but this car already has a tank so I'll have to make it work together.


Oil lines for the system are 18mm

Justin

[356hunter]

Thanks for your response! Do you think that 18mm lines will deliver the volume necessary for the life of your motor?

Michael Foster