Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[Jack Staggs]

That bottom valance has to be set so well in the correct position. After looking at your efforts you know that. But..how do you know where exactly the bottom of that valance should be. So easy to be an inch out.

Roy

Here's how:

quote="Jack Staggs" Now is about the time you need to put that trans back in, and fit a mock up engine, with perimeter shrouds and muffler (I assume sport type with twin straight tips), to verify clearance of the tips to the lower edge of the apron, and also to assure proper fit of the engine surround sheet metal. We're getting ready to do this check on a '53 soon.
I want to see 1/2" clearance to accommodate movement of the driveline on the mounts, and inevitable bottoming out of the tips, without striking the body work, another thing I HATE...

[JTR70]

Thanks again Roy. It seems to be turning the trick at the moment. Interesting findings on your car and thank you BTW for taking the time to provide it. Only two bolts holding the irons to the frame?

These cars all varied here I'm certain but my coupe is showing the iron exiting on the high side of the hole. Skin and bumper mounts are all original to the car. The example iron is original but not to this car. I've got the coupster skin now spaced away from the irons but not quite this high. It will most certainly change a bit as she goes.

I'm determining the apron's overhang with its relative distance to the leading edge of the cross member. Using my square mounted flush against the frame to do that. I'll post those findings shortly. Not completely scientific but it gives me a good ballpark. Then of course the final test is performing the mock up that Jack recommends.
Thanks again! Justin

[JTR70]

7/10/16
More tail work from last week.

I started out with the skin resting directly on the irons so spacers (paint sticks) where added next for needed clearance.

This needed adjustment upward a little more still made the overbite at the deck lid of course a lot worse.

A bright spot however was the improved distance away from the cross member. When I first took this measurement (a few posts back) It was better than 10mm out farther than the measurement I was getting from my reference car. Any attempt to close this gap made the tail appear to be "stuffed" or rolled under.

Now with skin loose around the lid opening I was able to bring it in closer where it belongs and keep the general body profile that I liked. This distance now measures within 2-3MM's of my reference coupe. Really happy about that development.

Added the c-clamps to hold my spacer and to lock in that desired distance away from the frame. Like I said this shop is very high tech/ cutting edge.

Lower apron dialed in for distance and height but all at the expense of the upper portion's fitment for now.

My guiding rule of working outward from the closing panel didn't quite hold water here. Instead, I had to cut all that loose again and work backwards. No away around it I suppose I had to get it mounted first, then figure out "where" it was wrong. Another lesson learned.

As this photo highlights I have a lot more issues than just the loss of the lid gap. The entire upper tail profile stand up way too proud now.

So I'll be cutting the tail along this weld joint to remove the excess metal. A big commitment and a little scary but the best option. The fine line tape section to the right highlights the bead roll. It has a definite angled approach so I took my digital protractor to my coupe to establish it. The apron is now secured to the fender to hold that attitude before cutting. This big alteration along with the complexity of it all was really weighing me down.

Fortunately, a very timely item I ordered from Zims showed up that afternoon. It was the push-rod version engine tray by Simonsen's.
My mind needed this little diversion for a change. How fun and simple to fit a square part into a square hole. This also gave me the time and space I needed to be absolutely sure about my plan for the tail skin. Lower engine tray prep and installation next.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

You are correct my mistake there are 3 bolts holding the bumper iron onto the chassis.

Should have put my head further under!

Roy

[bbspdstr]

Justin, here are a few quick references for a rear valance. The yellow car here now belonging to John Kreuz is also scanned as what it looked like in 1967. A '56, it had already been converted to tear-drop lights.
(The yellow Speedster is not lopsided, the floor is...going toward a drain, and it's the same Speedster.)
The other pictures reference the two original taillights on a '56 Cab, same story, and even with all the prior butchery done, the center of the original hole is 198mm from the inner corner of the unequal bumper bracket holes, FWIW.
Bruce









John just told me that the above scanned picture was taken at an early PCA Parade that used the old Marlboro race track and that Bruce Jennings drove that car around with him as an instructor.

[Jack Staggs]

7/10/16
More tail work from last week.
A bright spot however was the improved distance away from the cross member. When I first took this measurement (a few posts back) It was better than 10mm out farther than the measurement I was getting from my reference car. Any attempt to close this gap made the tail appear to be "stuffed" or rolled under.

I agree, it did look "stuffed" in the previous location. The gentle roll from the cowl to deck lid to rear panel looks much more natural now as opposed to the sharp decline from deck lid to rear panel before. It kinda reminded me of the old SCCA Speedsters, where some of the guys would make a vertical cut from the bottom of the rear panel, up through the license plate area to the lid, and push the panels forward, bowing out the rear wheel wells to accommodate wider tires. This resulted in a pie slice shaped opening at the cut, which was then filled by welding in a piece sheet metal. It looked like the rear was hit hard, and never pulled out far enough, very abbreviated, just like you said in an earlier post.

[JTR70]

Thanks for that Bruce. Definitely, any additional measurements I can get from an original example are golden! Interesting tail light repair on that Cab. Shooting for a Teardrop/single beehive combo at some point??

Thanks for the confirmation on the profile shape Jack! One thing about this shape; it gives you more than ample opportunities to get it subtly wrong.
Thanks again for all the help on this you guys!
Justin

7/11/16

Push-rod engine tray prep and install


Just a touch too long on both sides but it nearly fit right out of the box.

Both sides only needed about 2mm in length removed to fit. Forward flange was just flattened and rebent at the scribe line.


It now cleared and seated right in.

An equal amount was removed from this side as well. The best confirmation with all of this was that dimensionally they were all so close to fitting minimal modification required and also that this new engine compartment is actually still in square.

I have some excess overlap to remove at the center but I won't trim that until I have the sides bolted and synched against the walls. This was so easy and straight forward for a change that it was actually an enjoyable session.

More Prep:

Relief hole for the regulator harness to pass through marked out and ready for cutting here.

Shape based off the remains of this original.

Cut with edges flared over. Also well into drilling it for the bolts now.

With both sides all bolted up into final position cut lines were scribed so I could begin removing the excess at the center.


Both halves trimmed and reinstalled. (again) Happy with that joint/gap.

Final shape and position

ready to move onto the last detail...

Replicating this coupler bracket next. This is an original from a '59 and as you can see the factory went back to welding this shelf in by this time so what was once meant to be bolted in was simply gas welded on.

Coupler in basic form and now set screwed joining both halves.

Eventually the screws on the left half will be replaced with a plug weld and the right side will get two bolts.

New coupler finished with captive nuts. Ready to install.

One new removable T1 style shelf mounted and finished.
It was stress free and fun while it lasted. Now back to that tail.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JOP]

Looks nice with more colors on your Coupster
I see its a Thorsten Walsdorff piece you got there.... a TK Simonsen Origional teile

[John Pierce]

That's the easiest metal install you've had in a long while. It's nice to take a break from the slog.

[JTR70]

It is nice to get some more color in there Per. No complaints with the way that panel fit.

For sure John, and it was just the break I needed.

7/12/16

Back to work on the tail.

Had enough time to think about it so I was ready to take the plunge and start cutting.

Committed now... Apron remains locked into position so I can work back from it.

Initial fitment with the upper portion slipped in behind the apron.


The upper half was now resting on the bumper irons

That initial cut still wasn't enough as it laid still a bit too high and uneven.

I began cutting small strips away at the point of contact and after a few rounds of that it was able to seat where it had been. General alignment coming back.

Now secured and aligned with all the initial set holes before I started worrying about bumper bracket mounts and apron clearances.

Going back to Roy's comment about apron clearance this again was the relative differential from the bottom of the apron to the leading edge of the cross member of my reference car.

In the same location I'm getting readings of about 2-3mm higher. Good news but again its just a ball park and it is strictly relative as everything back here on this car is just an interpretive copy including my placement of the parts. The true test will be an exhaust system mock up as Jack suggested earlier... BUT it seems to be close.

so relieved to have that fitment against the lid back

To get a Butt-joint here again I'll be removing a solid half inch strip of metal.

The tail lights still don't look hideously low to me but they'll be a lot closer to the bracket holes than Bruce's example car of 198mm. I'll take a measurement tomorrow. If necessary I could fudge the holes up a touch higher to compensate for that half inch its losing. To be determined.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[Drew.s]

WOW Justin
This has been one hell of a journey, who would have thought the rear end was going to be such a pain, but it looks like you are almost there well done.
I am even more pleased with my purchase after watching you these past weeks.



Regards
Drew

[John Pierce]

Justin,

That looks SO much nicer and no longer looks like a hunchback! It's too bad you had to cut through that nice weld, but better there than at the lid opening.


JP

[roy mawbey]

Well done Justin, step away for a few hours and with thought, it does seem to help so much. As Drew says that is without doubt a very testing job to do. I don't know,you look at the back of a 356 speedster or coupe and all those measurements and clearances and you just accept, till you see a great thread like yours Justin!!

Yes Drew, I bet you are pleases to have that back section!

No wonder people say hand built, those bodywork people at the factory must have had all these problems to contend with, it does not go together like lego 'snap, snap, snap'.

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Great work and progress Justin. Really looks nice now. Gutsy move on your part but looks like just what needed to be done.

Phil

[JTR70]

[quote="Drew.s" post=34496]WOW Justin
This has been one hell of a journey, who would have thought the rear end was going to be such a pain, but it looks like you are almost there well done.
I am even more pleased with my purchase after watching you these past weeks.



Regards
Drew[/quote

Appreciate that Drew! Agree, its one hell of a rough road and I am still nowhere near out of the woods with this yet. I had to do some additional cutting as I'll post here shortly. I consider that original rear clip of yours to be on par with hitting the lottery my friend. I can't believe that fell into your lap! Absolutely, you are miles, and hours upon hours ahead of the game with that section. I see you have the fire wall in there with all the substructure closing walls. All those mating flanges and surfaces to the body exist, you don't have to deal with setting any of that stuff up. I've got a ton of time just dialing all that in and I'm still not finished. I don't know what you paid for it but just taking into account what Trevor charges for all his panels then the time required to tweak, fit and make them all work together to form a proper body I'd pay 15K for that clip in a heartbeat. So congratulations again on that! Thanks too for posting this clear shot of it as its helped to confirm my basic profile shape.

Thank you John, while I'm shooting for factory specs it does just have to look good in the end.

Thanks once again Roy! No, nothing like building a Lego set for sure. I'd have to compare this experience more to the concept of herding cats.

Thank you too Phil. It was a scary cut to make but unfortunately I've had to do several others which has also tested me. I'll post that up next.

Thanks again you guys!
Justin