Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[JTR70]

Roy, thank you for that very thoughtful post. The photos and descriptions here are of course just a quick glimpse of all the required planning, trials and tribulations between each progress picture. I try to be very mindful about self-editing so I don't get too deep in the weeds on detail and bore everyone to death. At the same time though I want to relay the truth about this being in no way as simple as: "fold here and put A-flap into B-flap, step 2 and so on". Your last post leads me to believe that a balance seems to have been maintained which I was glad to read. Yes, Bruce is far better equipped than I am for dealing with twisted or chopped in half chassis. If my project frame was severed or severely stuffed behind the suspension points a frame dozer would have been a must, no two ways about it. BTW: its looking good Bruce. Aside from the dash and cowl area you well into coupster conversion territory with that car. Sorry to hear about your firewall difficulties. You know as bad a time as I had with Hogue's dash and cowl I will give credit were its due and say that his fire wall and upper substructure where right on the money. I've had zero fitment issues with those two items. Trevor's new cowl mated together with it almost painlessly so I guess all these various replacement panels can be like a "box of chocolates"... you just don't what you're gonna get. The secret may have been that my hinge mounting holes were not drilled and was left up to me to find and locate them for this specific application. Much like the rocker assemblies I find most parts much easier to use when more is left "loose" for me to fit it to the car versus making the car fit the part. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Thanks again you guys!
Justin

2/21/16
bulkhead rear flange set.

My best average gapped fit against the lid finally set. Save for maybe a bit more ultra fine jockeying as the fenders are added.

It took some doing as this tail would flex and slightly shape shift as I began the process of adding screws to synch it down. The gaps along the sides would especially change causing all kinds of grief.

I'm still obsessing about 3mm side to side but I finally figured out that it was pointless to worry about that fine of an adjustment until after the fenders have been fitted. A lot shifting will be going on as I begin wrestling those on.

Once I had the tail skin in the sweet spot I was confident enough to locate and tack the mount flange into final position. Skin removed so I can continue stitching it up.

Some small irregularities against the latched lid profile but all within striking distance.

Welded the nut plate back on which also tied the flange back on the wall.

Some filler strips yet to add toward the sides but I really got bored with it so I'll finish it off later. I really wanted to get back on fitting the panels.

I pushed the tail skin fitment about as far as I could go on its own and was now time to begin fitting a quarter panel to help complete the puzzle.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

2/22/16

Reestablishing best average fit of left quarter panel.

Invested some time to pull, tug, and tilt this section into its best alignment with the edge of the door (W/gap), continuation of the top of the door, the corner of the rocker at the wheel opening, the forward opening of the cowl and the gap/profile against the decklid. All the while checking the general profile shape and attitude of the fender against the door to see if it continued the body lines smoothly. A lot all going on at once.

Was really happy with the general shape with the lid latched shut and too, the slight rake of the rear fender well opening. That was another critical detail I could add to the laundry list above.

Slightly tighter gap but a descent contour match with the lid for starters. There will certainly be some give and take here between these two panel sections to get that gap right.

Again just trying for general body lines for starters. Once I have that baseline I can begin tightening it all up.

The crown of this fender from about the edge of the decklid on back should be tapering down quicker. The top profile of the tail skin I feel right now is correct but I could change that opinion, its still early. However as it stands now I have a gut feeling I'll be sectioning the top the fender to gather up all that excess metal creating that opening there. Probably for the best as it will also allow for gap width adjustments at the deck lid.

Studying it from every angle with emphasis on the upper cap sections.

Once I was satisfied that it was just about in the sweet spot generally it was marked and pinned in position. Now time to begin cleaning up and establishing all the line/ body edge details beginning at the rear door gap.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[911quest]

Not sure I wouldn't be tempted to put a gearbox and wheels on the car before final welding. But I'm sure you thought of this..


Looking good!

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Looked carefully at the new fender section you have positioned so carefully and it lines up so well with the door pillar and can see it follows the engine rear lid. The gap though that is very evident that you mention possibly sectioning on the curve away from lid opening, looks considerable to me. To generate a good blend to the back section which looks so good would it not be best to get that fender sectiopn wheeled like I reckon Neil would do? To cut and stitch and at the same time produce that compound curve, one of the most important compound curves on the car would be most difficult to do??

Maybe its the photo that makes the error look large, but to me it looks a very difficult thing to correct. And no doubt the other side will be the same??

I would ask Neil what would he do in this case. Better to be sure before cutting anything.

I have seen you transform cowls I never thought would fit so if you are sure then no doubt it will work but had to air my thoughts.

Roy

[JTR70]

Ah yes Tony, the dreaded open car chassis flex. Definitely keeping that one in mind which was part of my motivation for getting the ass end supported on the rear torsion housing to relieve some of the leveraged tension load before fitting these fenders. That is an excellent point and idea about getting it back on suspension with the weight of a motor before finalizing the gaps. Especially at that back B-pillar gap, as that is where its going to potentially move the most. Also too the chassis is going to settle out slightly on the day I finally remove that subframe from the cockpit. With all this in mind the initial gap is going to be very wide and on the order of what the factory did and should give me more than enough margin for err with the inevitable flex/relaxation that's going to occur. The final gap will need to be shaped and closed in with lead but would not attempt that until the frame was in its final and natural state with drivetrain in as you suggested earlier.

Thanks for the advice Roy! Again, its really too early yet to say what has to happen there either way. I was more or less just contemplating worst case scenario. What I have to do there first is get the fender brace in and get the correct distance from the frame to the fender lip set. Once I have that established I'll have a much more accurate picture of weather I have too much metal there or not. Neil would certainly be the guy to smooth it out nicely either way. Hell, he'd probably throw this one away and make his own fender.
Thanks again you guys!
Justin

2/23/16
Setting leading edge of the fender.


Removing excess to clear a path for a close fit.

Once trimmed and reinstalled my initial target baseline was the alignment of wired edge of the rocker but that wasn't happening as the lower door gap was nonexistent.

This position also threw off my decklid lines so "everyone" was telling me it needed to come back some.


Best average fit with a nice wide raw gap much like I found on my coupe after I melted the lead away.

Pinned in position. Though wide the edge of the fender runs pretty consistent with the doors edge.

It opens up a touch wider at the top and was at first driving me nuts but this is probably a blessing as it is a wider margin for the potential flex in the frame once all is said and done.

Other than that the general fitment was good.

Will have to open up the turn in the rocker a bit to line these edges up.

Wired lip of the rocker needs a relief cut. The cut line is scribed here.

This pie cut gives me back alignment and a consistently shaped leading edge.

With the gap set its onto leveling and shape profiling the fender with the door.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[roy mawbey]

Nice Justin, that pie cut works out well. I looked at that before seeing your cut out photo and wondered how you would get over that.
Mind you it will take a while to fill that in and blend?

Also thought the wiring of the new fender looks so smooth. Equipment is everything. So much to think about on this area!!

Enjoying sitting in a chair and watching

Roy

[Don C]

Justin,
I see you are now using Cleco's, great little do-dads aren't they!

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy! That little pie cut will go pretty quickly. A lot quicker than trying to unwind that lip to move it over. yes, to make that beautifully wired edge Trevor certainly must have all the great toys in his shop.

They are very handy Don, the only shortcoming is that they don't offer the clamping force of screws so if I use them its only to hold outer flat skin surfaces. Down in the corrugated areas the screws do a much better job of drawing things nice and tight before welding but its always good to have options for sure.
Justin

2/26/16
Setting leading edge to striker post.

In a perfect world that mount flange would mate right up to the shoulder of the striker tightly all the while lining the surface of the fender with the latched door. Of course that wasn't going to happen.

Beginning at the bottom it mounted up surprisingly tight while aligning the skin surfaces. However it soon deviated and a series of makeshift spacers were inserted to locate the panel surface with the latched door.

It took some doing but a consistent and level transition with the door slowly emerged.

About as close as I was going to be able to fit it.

Now that the edge of this fender was set I began heating and pecking down the flange sections between the spacers to reset it into this position while using the striker as the hammer form.
More later...
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,
If that door to rear fender gap can be maintained then it will look great. Really clever thinking again to get that correct when its obvious its impossible to get two replacement panels to come together without modification to give that smooth result.

I have noticed on my two door shuts they are not both exactly the same on the step measurements I know I found lead on one and the factory must have found that job not that easy. I have that small step from the outer fender I presume because it shows the effect of door closure on the outer door closure lip. The lip never contacts the step its purely cosmetic?

I attach a shot of my door. I will be interested to see where you weld after you have finished the hammering down.

Again this shows how difficult these jobs can be. Well done!



Roy

[bbspdstr]

For visual comparison...while admitting my inability to stay up with all the postings on this and all threads on this wonderful site....I submit both 2 pictures of an original (albeit handbuilt) rendition rear quarterpanel-to-outer rocker "look" and a picture of the traditional gap from lock-post channel to inner rear door shell (usually) "about" 10-12mm

This showing "about" 6"/150+mm across the point the rocker end is leveled in it's step with the rear 'wing' (for Roy), using lead filler.



This shows the amount of lead filler to make the gap with the door edge.



Here is where the balance must be struck in restoration or a new build.



This is where the rear door seal must not only seal all (OK, so it's a Speedster in Justin's example, so "some" is maybe more appropriate)of the air and water from entering the interior. Porsche shimmed as needed with strips of a foam rubber in the channel where the metal-to-metal was not exact, but one also does not want to have to 'skinny' a seal to allow door adjustment for the optimal (and traditional) easy closure without slamming (if at all).

I use the actual seals that will be used in final assembly...maybe new extras of whatever I find works best from the different vendors providing such seals.....but add layers of tape to the edge of the channel to simulate the vinyl or leather wrap that adds more thickness (and therefore less clearance). The finger-latch on the door is installed and the striker on the lock-post is as well.
My point is that neither repro nor NOS new panels can be trusted to predict fitting and it's always a good bet to verify what gets moved before modifying or (especially) welding and suffering the dreaded 'painted into a corner' syndrome. Mock-up, proof, trial fitting, scratch arse (again, for Roy and others of that Brit persuasion), and get as much as possible out of that "sur...prize!!!" range.

Please note, we are using the left side of the 356 for these outer 'skin' examples, due to those who pay the bills on our side of the pond see that side almost 100% of the time so it must be the most correct.

[JTR70]

Thank you Roy!

Here was my factory untouched jamb after the lead was melted away. That secondary step your talking about is that spot welded leading edge of the fender which eventually gets dressed in a heavy coat of lead.

From this vantage point you can see just how crude and raw these areas where. The gap is enormous and the height differential between the two panels just as bad. The tiny green arrows show how thick the lead originally was and much the same as in Bruce's examples above. What can you say, just a time constraint necessity of production. Since I have a bit more time to fiddle with area it will still need lead but will require far less.

Bruce, thanks again for the tips! That weather strip channel is a very easy one to over look and in fact I had nearly forgotten all about until you brought it back to my attention so thanks for that!
Justin
3/1/16

Just about done heating and beating this edge into position.

As it went I constantly checked it against the door to make sure I was not ruining the body profile. You can see here that it is going to need some lead but not nearly as much.

Done. This went a lot easier than I thought it was going to.

"Big juicy" but consistent gap. The final gap will be established in lead once the holding jig has been removed and the frame is in its "natural state" of tension/ flex. This larger gap just allows for this eventual variable.

The rule of thumb for a nice gap is about a paint sticks thickness. With a paint stick inserted you can see that it will require only about 3MM of lead to create that gap width.

Up top it opens a touch wider and may require up to 5MM of lead to create that gap but after the chassis settles in it will probably close up a bit and require far less so that I think is a blessing.

Final forward fender profile shape. After all that heating and bending it pretty much remained the same. It relaxed a touch below the door handle but its still at a level I can live with. Working my way backward next.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

3/3/16

T1 fender brace detail.
Left side rear fender brace was removable on early T1's as part of the "Carrera ready" protocol during that production time.

Since I had sections of an original brace and enough original scrap lengths I decided to rebuild it as the mount flange and nut plates where there.

Mount hole locations were taken from my coupe.

Extension lengths added and the tip flanges folded out to copy how it was done.

All mocked up before tack welding with New mount tab for fender just finished.

Brace tacked up and tab set screwed in position for now. It was instant rigidity and shape once this lower corner was tied in. The distance from the frame was set at just 10.5 inches which was the measurement I got from my coupe. Certainly not set in stone but was just a good jumping off point.

Added the tail back on just to see if this initial distance was going to agree or not with the rear section.

It was actually pretty close. The overall shape and attitude of the fender was alright too. Not overly crowned or flared like when I first began fitting it up loose. I have no doubts that it will require slight changes as it goes but its good for now.

With that established I'm onto the upper edges of fitting this fender.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[John Pierce]

Those curves are really starting to take shape! Looking great.

JP

[merbesfield]

Wow, it looks like you have a car there

[neilb]

Justin, your doing a cracking job with that body! we are all eagerly waiting to see it in paint, do you know what the colour will be?