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  • Justin,

    Just read through the last two pages of this thread to catch up with exactly what you are doing.

    Several things come to mind.

    1). Just how many people starting out 356 wise fail to realise how the rust can get into a 356 underneath and spread so far over 54 years? And this underneath is actually far better than some.

    2). How many 356 cars are still on the road with these box sections rotting away under their feet?

    3). How many realise the importance if they start to repair themselves the need for complex braces like you made to hold the body in one place, the ever increasing range of tools including a spit to just get at it all?

    4). The 356 can still look wonderful with a rusty top half, its a nightmare if its even half as bad underneath.

    I did the welding on mine when it was 18 years old, it was a pampered car from new, thank goodness I didn't buy the other rusty ones I saw then.

    As I have said before ( a number of times ) you make this work look easy glancing from one photo to another, seeing how you always use old parts mocked up to check fit, even that looks easy! None of this is easy, it real hard work and even harder when you have to process something like that swaging on the heater tube entry.

    I guess when you read bodywork restoration work on a rusty 356 is going to cost around the $50k figure you have to understand by looking at threads like this why its that amount.

    No where else Justin can a 356 guy with rust to contend with get a better instruction than here.

    Its going to be a nice car when this is finished, no hidden surprises
    for sure.

    Roy

    Comment


    • Roy, thanks a lot for the really nice post! I appreciate you saying that and it does make all the time spent updating this post worthwhile.

      Those are all very good points; I would have to say that most would never dream that there is so much involved with repairing these old chassis. It really shocks me that guys take on cars even worse than this one with dreams of rebuilding it. I can certainly understand how this chassis would have been scrapped 20 years ago. It just wasn't worth the time it takes to fix all of this. How things have changed. Peoples eyes glaze over when you tell them that guys like Bruce and Wilhoit are in the 25K+ range just to put in a floor. All they recognize are the pans themselves and have no clue as to all the prep-work that must be done before you can even think about welding in a new floor. I am sure there are quite a few "nice" running 356's with severe rot deep in the cavities I'm in the middle of here. I am glad that this is helping to shed some light on what really is involved with resurrecting a severely rusty 356. Thanks again Roy!

      7/24/13 Templates part 2
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      With the first outer wall template done I cut a section of it out give me a clear shot at the second layer. This next one comprises most of the vertical wall and all of that triangular shaped floor that is so rusted. Template just about set. I'll of course add more to vertical
      wall to address that hole where the hinge mount was.
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      Just about ready to cut this eye-sore out to get to the third layer.
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      Now that the first two layers have been copied I am onto this third section. This is the flange/closing panel that end of the heater tube was welded to. Template for this one next. Slowly getting past all the rot! Thanks for stopping by! Justin
      Justin Rio

      Comment


      • I am always amuzed and amazed at how many people use the term "Rust Free" when describing a Porsche. What a joke! There are no rust free Porsches, at least not the old ones. Just differing degrees of less or more rust. The key is to start with as nice a car as you can. With 356's that is pretty much not possible any more due to their cost. As Justin is showing us, the rust goes deep and all the cars will have rust. This is one of the reasons why I like doing my own metal work. How many people, paid or not, are willing and patient enough to do this level of work? Not many, at some point money, boredom or impatience kicks in and short cuts will be made. When people give me shit for my restorations taking sooooo long, they really have no clue as to the amount of work that goes into doing a car right. Even if you have tons of cash to throw at a restoration, there is only so fast something like this can go without simply covering up the rust with some fresh metal. Not to mention all the time it takes to keep a pictorial record online to show all those who are interested, what you are doing. Thanks for your post Justin.
        Mark Erbesfield
        57 356A
        65 911
        68 912
        73 911S
        66 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
        79 450SL Dad's old car

        Comment


        • Thanks a lot Mark! You are absolutely correct they ALL have rust to some degree. There is not a 356 alive that does not rust in every one of its pinch seams; it maybe light but guaranteed there is some rust. This is also the reason why good grounds for the electrics are always an issue. You're description of this journey through heavy rust rings so true!! It can be tricky to press on, especially when you're waist high into it with no end in sight. I've seen your work on that 912 so I know you have been there. By contrast that A coupe of yours was a nice find! Thanks again Mark! Justin
          7/24/13
          One more template.
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          Template making now begins for this final layer of rotted metal
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          This final layer is actually the top closing portion of the frame/longitudinal runner. The last bit of rusted out metal is the defroster conduit at the kick panel.
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          Interior view of that conduit.

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          With my basic template to shape I went ahead and removed the last of the rusted out section of this corner.
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          Finally got past the rust holes.
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          Adding and subtracting to that basic template. Its in final form here and am now ready for metal.
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          Rough basic part.
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          lots of fine trimming and test fits begin.
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          Also have to knock in a pilot hole for the end of the heater tube.
          Thanks for reading this! Justin
          Justin Rio

          Comment


          • By contrast that A coupe of yours was a nice find!

            Yes it was. I cannot wait to get back into working on it. Soon, very soon.
            Mark Erbesfield
            57 356A
            65 911
            68 912
            73 911S
            66 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
            79 450SL Dad's old car

            Comment


            • My Dad always said "rust free" meant they weren't going to charge any extra for it. Here's one we threw away after we stripped it. 1974
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              Comment


              • Justin, can you comment on what you do with regards to surface coatings during your metal work? Personally I have several different things or ways I treat the metal as I am finishing. If I were doing a complete rebuild like you are here, I believe the best thing to do might be media blast one last time after the major repairs were made, but that is a whole other debate with regards to media and how it gets in all the places you don't want it to. I like to coat my finished repairs with Epoxy Primer. I do not like to use weld through primer bc I don't like how it affects my welds. I have tried many brands and they all do the same thing, contaminate the metal and cause poor welds with splatter. I try to coat as much bare metal as possible, them grind back spots where I need to weld. A really cool trick taught to me by my friend Bill Webster, is to use a 20g hypodermic needle and inject POR into the cracks between the layer of steel sheeting. I was skeptical at first, but let me tell you, it is amazing how much POR is sucked into the joints during this process. The syringes are cheap and I just throw them away when done. Once the joints stop drawing the POR in, I let them dry for a few days. POR can take a long time to dry and of course the insides will take even more time. Once this is complete, I take Brushable Seam Sealer and work it into the cracks. I don't like to see the sealer so I take the time to tape up all the joints inside and out so that the sealer only gets on the actual crack itself. I pull the tape immediately upon finishing the area. By doing it this way, you still see the nice factory spot welds and joints, but they are sealed and protected. Then it all gets more Epoxy primer, another coat of some satin black and then Schutz. This is a lot of work and many steps, but at least I know I am doing everything I can to prevent future rust and water intrusion. I figure,if the car lasted this many years with little to know protection from the factory and daily driving use, it should last a long time with modern coatings and never seeing any rain. Sorry if this has been too long. Thanks, Mark
                Mark Erbesfield
                57 356A
                65 911
                68 912
                73 911S
                66 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
                79 450SL Dad's old car

                Comment


                • Thanks Erik! I really like your dads definition of "rust-free"; that is hysterical!

                  Hey Mark, Well getting the remaining rust out of the inner longitudinal area will be nearly impossible logistically speaking. What I'll do is sand it down as best as I can then coat what is left with rust converter. After that the area will be sealed in epoxy primer and a good coat of paint.(Since primer is porous) That should entomb everything well enough, especially considering the sheltered life it will lead afterward. I do like your friends idea of the syringe though! Never tried the weld through primers so I can't say on that one but I'll take your word for it.

                  7/25/13
                  Officially touched bottom on this side and am now on the way back.
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                  New patch now fully installed.
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                  New piece follows the contoured edge of the closing panel it will be joined to.
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                  New flange will be plug welded onto the new closing wall section. That will have to until the new heat tube is in. I need access to the top side to weld the tube to this new patches opening as originally. So I've gone as far as I can until the new tube is in.
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                  Inner top side view
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                  Will cut a little more of the conduit away so I can get in there to weld up the tube opening.
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                  Will be nice once this is all metal though..
                  Thanks for looking! Justin
                  Justin Rio

                  Comment


                  • Justin, Out of curiosity, What make and model welding rig do you use? Settings? wire size, speed, heat range, etc. I have used them before but only as a novice. I know experience is the best teacher but what model would you recommend? What about the rest of you guys? Thanks, Erik

                    Comment


                    • Hey Erik, I'll take a photo of my welder tomorrow with wire, speed and heat details.

                      7/26/13

                      New(old) heater tubes here.
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                      Replacement tubes got here on Tuesday. Guaranteed to be solid.
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                      Actually they are pretty good. I think I can even salvage the original bulkhead supports.
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                      looks better already.
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                      Now to begin trimming and fitting them in.
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                      But first an acid bath to get them all clean.
                      Thanks for stopping by! Justin
                      Justin Rio

                      Comment


                      • In looking at your last few photos, I realized how much structural rigidity the heater tubes and associated bulkheads add to the longitudinals and in effect the entire chassis. Thanks again for your photographic tutorials.

                        Comment


                        • Sounds like we do basically the same process. Try the syringe, I think you will like it. Another tip Bill gave me is using the Preval sprayer system for small areas as you complete them. It rocks! So easy compared to using a full size gun. I used to dread painting as I was metal working bc of the time killer. These things are fast and easy. When you are done spraying pour some thinner in the cap and suck it thru to clean the sprayer. Put your finger over the spray outlet and it will backwash, do this a few times til clear and you are good to go for next time.

                          http://shop.preval.com/collections/frontpage/products/preval-val-pak
                          Mark Erbesfield
                          57 356A
                          65 911
                          68 912
                          73 911S
                          66 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
                          79 450SL Dad's old car

                          Comment


                          • Very interesting all you guys with respect to the coating of the box sections and underneath metal. How things have developed over the past 35 years since I did my work. Its almost a science now on procedures. Just looking at the new ( old original ) heater tubes you have bought Justin brought back memories to me. I remember I had some small perforations in the rear closing panel of the passenger side longitudinal. I cut that out and formed by hand a new one to weld in. Of course I was able to see into the longitudinal with a lead light to inspect the heater tubes for some distance in. They were really good for the distance I could see just some light surface rust, but really solid like the new ones you have bought.

                            I had then a small hand held spray with long reach nozzle that I first used to spray the internals with ' Jenolight' I think my memory is correct with the name. It had the most awful strong smell and the metal turned a shade of dark grey which according to the bottle would kill the rust.

                            I then coated as far as possible the inside of the longitudinal (which is still original but with a re-inforced jack spur ) with best quality Zink paint. The cans of this paint were so heavy I thought this must be a good product Finally I pumped oil into the cavities to hopefully creep into the area's I could not reach. I found the drivers side longitudinal had perforations in the front section. I cut this area out and carefully made a new section to weld in. I was able to see the front of the heater tubes on this side and again they were fine. Here again, I did same preparation of the original interior. It was not easy to get the perfect join on welding especially because of not having a spit but after scraping the complete original floor back to mostly bright metal I painted again with two coats of the zink primer.

                            The rubberized undercoat choices then were to me minimal, no one to ask, just read some magazines and bought what others had mentioned that seemed okay. To complete the whole car took me weeks. Media blast never heard of it, shot blasting yes, but understood the problems of using that process.

                            Since the mid 70's my car has got wet maybe four times, the underneath looks really no different to when I completed it. I do check weather forcasts as I will never do the underneath again.

                            But, with all the comments and advice you guys are now supplying, I would have paid much more attention to products and their uses.

                            Very interesting one and all.

                            Roy

                            Comment


                            • Thank you Roy! I would bet the farm that all the repairs you made in there all those years ago are perfectly intact. Between its sheltered life and all the steps you took to seal it out I would have to believe its as fresh as the day you closed them up. Your description is one with a lot forethought and detail. As I have worked on this frame it occurs to me that most of the longitudinal decay is caused from the windshield seal leaking and allowing seepage to run down into and around the defroster vents. If you've kept water out of there all your repairs are golden.

                              Thanks Mark, I checked out the link!

                              Thank you Erik!
                              Here is my MIG welder:
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                              Its a Millermatic 251 I bought used-almost new about six years ago for 1,250.00 I settled on this one for two reasons; its has tons of fine adjustment settings for heat and wire speed for welding thin gauge or just "thin/rusty" sheet metal which is par for the course on any 356. Secondly its big enough for welding heavy gauge frame and tubing as I sometimes do. I at first bought the smallest gauge wire which was I believe 020? It was too thin, If I put any volts to it for penetration it burn and "ball-up" at the tip. I had to drop the heat but the welds were just not hot enough. I went back up to 023 and it gives me exactly what I need for joining 19-20 gauge metal. Yes, through the years I have developed a feel or acquired technique for welding pitted thin metal. At first I'd just blow through and get really pissed and frustrated; now I've got it down where if it attempts to blow out I quickly pull back as I do there is a yellow/orange blob on the end of the wire and before it cools I finesse the trigger and re-introduce it into the forming hole and plug it. That's one little trick I just learned by doing. Hope that made sense. Anyway this machine gets me by but I do want a TIG at some point as well.
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                              While we are on the subject of equipment here is my "other arm" Its a 5HP (rated@5HP) Curtis I bought new right around the same time I bought the welder as I was setting up shop. Growing up my dad always had the cheapie 2 or 3HP compressors that could not keep up with any of the tools or spray guns. It was always very irritating and I promised myself when I had my own place I'd have a good compressor. I Did my research and spoke with a dealer and found that a quality 5HP was all that I needed for a hobby shop. I bought this one for 1,500 from an Ole'boy down south who was a Curtis dealer. I spoke with him on three occasions and it was always very funny and entertaining. Right after I made the deal I later read that when you buy a compressor just because it says "X" Horsepower doesn't mean your getting "X" Horsepower. Example when you buy a 5HP compressor you have to make sure its "rated at 5HP" Its a slick deception on the part of some manufactures. Needless to say I got right on the phone to ask him if this was a legitimate 5HP unit I was getting. His response still brings a smile to my face (you have to imagine it with a heavy southern drawl)" oh no, its a full 5HP rated at 5HP, You're getting a man, not a boy".
                              Anyway, it too has been a great asset; not a hiccup or a problem in 6 years and it easily keeps up with all my grinders. Justin
                              Justin Rio

                              Comment


                              • 7/28/13
                                New tube 90% clean of old rust. Tube ends cleaned of old weld and flange metal. Trial fitments begin.
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                                As expected this end is shy and will have to fabricate an extension.
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                                Both tube end and frame opening have been cleaned and prepped of scrap pieces.
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                                This new tube had enough of the old section still with it to show me that the inner repair flange I did was turned 90 degrees at the bottom. An oversight on my part. New flange added here. This will be double thickness once complete.
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                                This tubes were originally already welded on before the frame ever went together because the seam weld at the mouth was on the inside. Putting this on now after the fact the weld must be done outside.
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                                A little flash rust but its almost ready to be mounted. Continuing on tomorrow. Thanks for looking! Justin
                                Justin Rio

                                Comment

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