'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[John Pierce]

Looking at more pictures from the Registry, it would seem that the gap between the window frame rear wind deflector and the quarter window B-pillar should be 3.5-4 mm to continue the gap between the rear of the door and fender. If this is so.....then the gap between the top front of the window frame with the car sheet metal should also be 3.5-4 mm? Can anyone verify this as it looks like I've got to reposition the door some more?

Thanks.

John

[tperazzo]

Hey John,
My observations are that the gaps are all over the place on the window frames. As you say most cars have a larger gap at the front. I "adjusted" my frames for a consistent gap all the way around, but it's still tightest at the rear. The other annoying thing to me is the frames lean in a little bit when viewed from the headlights. Perhaps I can adjust it better once the rubber is fitted.

So far your fit looks pretty good to me. I wouldn't mess up the door gaps to get the frames looking better. I did hammer and dolly on the front channels to improve the fit.

Also my frames sit lower in the doors than yours. Have you put the 1/4 round piece in to make sure it covers that notch?

Thanks,
Tom

[John Pierce]

Thanks Tom.

What do you mean by putting the 1/4" round piece in to cover the notch?

Could my frames appear to be sitting high because I haven't installed the chrome window piece?

When I first installed the door with the window frame in place the front of my window frame barely covered the metal channel in the windshield A-pillar that holds the rubber seal. That gap was 10 mm, while the rear window gap with the quarter window pillar was nonexistent. I repositioned the door forward and now have a 3 mm rear gap, a 4 mm top gap and a 7 mm front gap.

I can make the door gaps anything I want at this point as it's going to be all new metal (B-pillar, rear and front fender edges). I'd like to get the window frame seated correctly with nice gaps and then work outwards from there.

I haven't found a good close-up picture of the front gap. But the pictures I've been able to find make it appear that the rear door gap continues upwards through the region of the window frame wind deflector.

JP

[tperazzo]

Yes the piece i'm referring to is the chrome threshold strip thingy that sits on the top of the door.
Tom

[Jack Staggs]

[quote="John Pierce" post=38154 I'm mocking up the window frames again and things are not fitting as well as I'd like. In order to get some reasonable gaps around the top and sides of the window frame I'm having to move the door more forward which messes with the front door to fender gap which is all OEM metal.




[/quote]STOP NOW. Do not move your original fit door to original front fender if clearance is good at the interface above the top hinge when opening the door. Modifications in this area can have deleterious effects. I see several other issues. No time now, sorry

[tperazzo]

It's me again John,
I know one thing Jack was going to say is that your wind deflector is hanging over the door edge. Same thing happened to my car and Jack pointed it out on my thread. It's one of those details that I procrastinated and now it's causing problems that my paint guy is having to deal with at my expense.

Something looks different though with your doors. My doors were missing the small flange or lip that spaces the frame inward. That lip needed to be welded to the top of my door. The confusing thing is that lip is already there on your door. So I'm not sure why your frame and wind deflector are so far rearward. My car isn't close by, so I can't look at it or I would try to help further.
Has lead been removed from the end of your door? One of my doors did have a good amount of lead there on the end. Jack and I have discussed this in detail and we both agree that lead filler here is not the best fix as it does crack due to the stress riser in the sharp corners. Jack has seen a few examples of cracks where the door frame meets the door. Instead, it's best to cut the door move as needed and re-weld in steel. (It still might crack).

Also check the clearance between the door and front fender when the door opens. The area that Jack is referring to is just above the upper hinge. Justin's thread has a detailed discussion on this too. My car isn't painted yet, but I'm looking for a credit card thickness minimum.

The notch I was referring to is the one in front of the wind wing. Your notch is showing above the top of the door, which is why I asked if the chrome strip covers it? If not, then your door is probably hung too low. That notch is there to allow the frame to sit lower in the door if my memory is correct.

I hope this is consistent with what Jack was going to say, but hopefully he will have time to share his thoughts later.
Tom

[John Pierce]

Thanks Tom and Jack.

I'll install the 1/4 round chrome piece to the top of the door to see if the window hole is covered. No lead was on the rear of the door. The front top gap above the hinge ranges from 3.5-4 mm. The window frame is bolted in position in the door and I may be wrong, but it doesn't appear that it can be moved forward any further.

I'll hold off from doing anything else until I hear back from you guys and appreciate the help diagnosing the fitment issues. Let me know if you need any more pictures.

JP

[bbspdstr]

Please forgive me for noticing Tom's comment of:

"I hope this is consistent with what Jack was going to say, but hopefully he will have time to share his thoughts later."

...but Time is not always available for everyone but input by everyone is extremely important. This applies to anyone who performs (like in a circus) these topics for a living, such as that "living" is. Please note that the advice and shared experiences here is not provided by "the big boys" in the trade, (even if one of us po' guys gets written up in R&T). The best techies do this because we love the cars and the process of keeping them viable, not for the money. A strange disease we share, this is.

John, you are entering upon one of the, if not the biggest can of worms being opened... with so many subtle influences affecting the door/door opening/window frame fit. It's geometry, plain and simple. It's "Made by Hand" all over....but you have caught it in time. You are getting VERY valuable advice from Tom, et al. The best from Jack has been to "STOP."

Again, "in the mean time" while waiting for Jack, please note that everything involved has to be "dry fit" for a complete, "first time" success. Tack welds, TEK screws or Clecos on metal overlaps, priorities established for what's most important for focus....general planning before ANYTHING is truly "finished." John, you already have a handle on all of this so far so please bear with me if any of what I'm about to write is superfluous.

First, know I have seen slightly different lengths of original wind deflectors on the rear of the window frames. I suspect the hand-fitting was done on assembly, not during a body-build with the door. There was a lot of adjust-ability for the whole window structure, but perhaps the wind deflector was the one exception. I have also had to remove or add "a bit" by silver-soldering a slice from a donor to get a good fit..when, say, a C door has arrived at my shop on an A body...that had a sunroof clip installed as well...all done in Europe about 30 years ago. Nice work, just done improperly. Straight rockers, handmade nicely, that required the previous workers to flatten the bottom of the nice, un-rusted C doors, etc. Lots of curves thrown my way, but I have had 50 years of batting practice (but still occasionally strike out. Hey, it's baseball season, thus my metaphor.)

I think I see the rear of your right door (pictured) falling away where you have been informed that the deflector is sticking over. That may be missing Factory lead. BTW, "silver-solder" will not crack but can cure an existing crack. Also, body lead was good enough in almost every example of door fit in every 356 built by or for Porsche, so I see no reason to change that application. (My apologies to Tom, but that's my personal opinion.)

That is especially true on the front and rear door tops/ends. Those door tops should follow the line of the lower 1/4 window edge of the 1/4 panel top. The notch on an original lock post panel should match the top of the door's rear upper corner. Lead was often the means for that continuous body line.

Also note that the front windshield post lower areas are heavily leaded so all things coming together in that area can be a smooth flow and fit.

The door window frame is flexed outward as it rises toward the roof (of a Coupe) as it tries to push into the seal on the body channel when the door is closed. (That's where different seals from different vendors come in handy.) That "dollar bill test" must be included in the fitting and alignment mix. Better now than later.

Yes, your advice so far has been good in that the chromed frame is "about" the same all around in relation to a seal...but the addition of the wind deflector makes that part closer to the B pillar. It just needs to be "close" and evenly spaced. Classic "if it looks good, it is good."

Yes, add the 1/4-round chromed horizontal door top. Now is a good chance to be sure the screw holes are not too big. (If so, I just use a Tinnermann 'speed nut' up behind or move laterally with a new proper hole and countersink in the brass flange, as it is all eventually covered by a new 'fuzzy' strip.)

The frame can be rotated and adjusted in and out with the top of the door bolts being the pivot. Some slotting may be needed to wind up with a good looking but mainly good working window....all of that should be fit before paint. To your chromed frames (chroming can change things dramatically) add the channel seals and the glass. No need for the regulator yet, just tape to hold the glass as it's moved up and down in the frame to get the frame legs width/clearance of travel established.

Basic clearances must be recognized all around in the door and in the body door opening. The hinges allow door end elevation and door tilt with shims and/or nut-plates and slotting, but, as Tom points out, the main clearance of which to be aware is right above the hinges where the door opening rotation takes the top of the door precariously close to the edge of the front fender as it approaches the bump-stop. Get that clearance geometry first, then get the rear angle of the closing panel in sync with the arc of the door's rear and the latch mating and work from there forward and rearward....masking tape layers to replicate all the component thicknesses, the frame set, the final seals to be used, etc, etc. When all is in paint, it's too late for major changes. ('Ask me how I know.')

Yesterday, I was trying to find time to take relevant pictures for this thread on the original cars I have here, but each 356 is at a stage where those pictures wouldn't be clear or I'd need to go off-site to a storage facility....so words (hopefully of some benefit) will have to do for now. I know I have whole weeks where I cannot even monitor Justin's great site and times where I can read but not find/make time to add anything.....and now, today, this is all I can do while I am (literally) waiting for glue to dry!

Keep up the great work, John, Tom and everyone!

Regards,
Bruce

[Phil Planck]

There you are John. Most of door frames 401 until Jack adds his experience. Wish I had access to Foam Car(still in FL), as I thought the one frame I have installed fit pretty good, but now see I have lots of checking to do.

Thanks Bruce for letting that glue dry and taking time to key all of that in.

Pjil

[John Pierce]

Thank you Bruce for taking the time to provide advice!! It is so appreciated.


I've got an OEM replacement B-pillar. Since I'm replacing the whole thing I can manipulate its position for best fitment of the door and window frame.



By moving the door forward the front gap is now at 6 mm and the 1/4 round chrome covers any holes. The front gap still seems wide in comparison to the top and rear window frame gaps and also in comparison to the 3.5 mm door gaps.



As you can see I removed the lead in this area, which was pretty thick. With the door moved forward this door to fender gap is 3.5 mm.



I can make the door to fender gap anything at this point as I'm not married to saving the fender metal. The door opens and closes nicely without hitting. I can still move the door forward and trim back the fender edge if people think that the front window frame gap is still too wide.


The rear window frame gap looks pretty good with the wind deflector in place. I can move the B-pillar if the experts think it's not in good position. The outer top rear part of the door did originally have some lead as it is concave. I don't remember seeing lead on the rear of the door to fix the overhang of the wind deflector and 1/4 round chrome, but maybe there was. Lead in this area would make sense as there's a pretty big gap between the door and the B-pillar.

Further advice is very welcome!!

JP

[tperazzo]

John,
Here are some pictures from John Willhoit's website. I've seen this car and its stunning and perfect, and a concourse winner, and a Carrera 2.

Note the height relationships between the chrome strip and the frame (near the wind wing area) in the picture below and compare it to yours.



Here's a good shot of the rear wind deflector and gap.



I feel your pain on this alignment stuff. As Bruce said, its a can of worms. But I know you will do the research and get it as close as you can. My personal opinion, (may not be right), but the front of your door is too low. Hopefully others will respond. You said your gap is 3+mm at the pinch point? Seems big, but I may be reading your post wrong.

Maybe post a picture showing the line of the door top to the transition of the windshield opening.

Thanks
Tom

[Jack Staggs]

Great replies you guys. I'm learning too, thanks to the crafty solutions that often pop up here. Thanks Justin.
A couple thoughts. John, if your front fender at the rear edge is still original, as well as the front of the door (no cutting,welding, lead removal, etc), I would set that gap to spec and shim the door hinges for the best fit using a straight edge across the gap. Hold the straight edge parallel to the ground measuring from the bottom of the door to the top, including where the gap becomes diagonal. Check for clearance at the critical upper spot. Work your fit towards the rear per Bruce's excellent post ( about an hour of thinking and typing at, least for me...).
The window frame seems unusually high to me at the vent window, as show by pics from Tom.
Finally, there is a temptation to install the striker plate too far forward in an attempt to close the gap at the rear of the door. That could cause issues like Phil experienced, or even worse. On original cars that have had the lead melted out in that location, gaps can require 10mm or more of filler to restore proper gaps.
Hope this helps.
Jack
Send $10 and a sase for a valuable signature

[MMW]

I know I don't have a vent window but here are some shots of mine. The window frame gap at the b pillar is 3-5 mm, top gap 5-6 mm, front gap 5-7 mm. When you are looking at it you don't notice it at all that the gap is not exactly even all around. The most visible is the back at the b pillar as it continues the door gap so I feel this is the most important to get visually correct.

In your post above you show the "door moved forward" to give you a 3.5 mm gap. I think this is to tight in this bare stage of work. Don't forget you need to have some lead most likely, primer then paint.

[JTR70]

Don't get too caught up with the door frames. Your rear quarter window frame fitment will dictate your B-pillar position.

Here's my wind deflector difference:

Average clearance on the right

Almost zero gap on the left. This is the way it came so the factory so they didn't seem to be concerned with it. You can only see one side at a time.

[John Pierce]

I finally got some time to work on the car and took a break from the right lockpost to finish up the left rocker and sill.



Front flange rebent to match the splash panel.



Plug holes and a relief cut placed. The hole for the hinge pin was repositioned.



Pretty good gaps and fit.



The rear fender is a bit of piecemeal assembly and will be repaired.



Slowly looking more complete.

Thanks for following.