Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[JTR70]

I appreciate that Bruce, but I really doubt that I'm showing you anything new here or haven't already learned 35 years ago.
Thanks for saying so just the same! You really had to strip her down! If this frame had been bent I'd be in desperate need of frame dolly like the one you've got there. So I take it you are performing the weld repairs all with the car right side up? If so that's brutal! Very interested to see how you guys make out with Trevor's new panels so please keep the updates coming on this car. Thanks again Bruce!
Justin
2/9/16
Minor decklid alterations.

Cut the forward mount free and ground away a few MM's to allow the front of the lid to come down just a touch more to align with the cowl.

Set screwed while I begin test fitments.

About as good as I'm going to get.

Straight edge test with no real daylight poking through.

Any subtle irregularities can be caught with lead or block sanding and builder primer.

With the Elevation and forward gap now set I can continue on down the back side.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[Don C]

Brilliant fix Justin!

[roy mawbey]

Great work there Justin. Enjoying the pics!!

Roy

[JTR70]

Not sure about brilliant Don, but its getting the job done anyway.

Thank you Roy!

2/11/16

Refitting a slightly cock-eyed cowl and decklid.
I was just about ready to fully commit and lay down the first plug-welds on the rear cowl but before I did I noticed something was amiss.

To get this vantage point I have to be up on my ladder and as you can see the right side is a touch lower and just looks off. The gap is even with the lid so this meant the cowl was off too. Looking back on it the biggest mistake I made was probably fitting the cowl to a loosely mocked up lid that I could not modify to fit 100% correct. Just a little too much variance and once I had this lid cut and fitted down it became very apparent that it was off in relation to the dash and the rest of the car.

Cowl and lid both reset here. After a ton of measuring, cross checking, top frame mock up and just plain obsessing that this was "officially" correct I decided that the right corner was not low but that the left side was too high. Only by a few MM's mind you but enough that is was throwing off the symmetry. This is the danger of building free-style without a dedicated jig, if you're not watching it closely enough it will bite you in the ass! Especially these complex little curvy bodies. BTW: I'm seriously considering making a jig from my buddy's speedster.

So with this new adjustment I lost my latch alignment. While I fortunately discovered the cowl before I began welding I sadly set the wall's lateral adjustment to the incorrect initial mock up. I can't tell you what a PIA this was; it was all cascading downward. I probably just could have just opened up the holes more on the latch and tang but that just wasn't the right fix.

I decided it best to drill the mount plate free open and move the centers of the holes, remount the plate the needed 5mm over to center it all out again.

Plate relocated with latch mechanism back to neutral.

Both panels now reset with lid fully latch again. I obsesses over this for a while and came up with all kinds of sight markers like the one above just to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me.

After all the physical and mental hoops I was finally confident enough to put the first plug-weld down and it was scary.

I really fought myself again and opened up the gaps just a touch more to compensate for any unforeseen changes as it continues. Through all the trials of fitting that cowl I did notice it slightly changing the gap width to the lid (mostly tighter) as I began synching both flanges with screws. I finally got it through my head that its best to give it just a bit more room. That's why the factory used lead right.

The rear flange of the cowl is now fully welded down and the lid is now back to being just a touch high so one more round with the hinge mounts to get it evened out again.

Finally with all that business settled I'm now back on the rear tailskin and mounting flanges.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[JOP]

Morgen Justin,
Im happy you catched the mm that was off before you had it more together...painted an all
You cant be to accurat to measure and xross measure a couple off times to get it all right.
But also that you have set a "0" index point to start off from.
I use theses rods in the enclosed pictures... 2000mm, 1500mm, 1000mm and a 500mm.(last picture you see the blue painted end with a pointy rod on it...you move the blue painted part to get read off the mm measured )
You could easly build you "Celette" bench especially as you have your buddies tub to set up and build around plus the charts and measurements from The Porsche Workshop books.
Go 4 it and good luck.

[JTR70]

Hey Per,

I like that and those would certainly make life a lot easier. The sub frame I have in the cockpit does more than just hold the chassis, I built it square, centered and even so I could use it as a sight maker throughout the build and it did provide confirmation to get me back on course. I just fell asleep while I was adjusting the cowl to that other decklid but the accessories you're suggesting would have definitely helped out alot. That's funny you mentioned "before paint" I was bitching to my friend about all this and he sent me this photo:

I don't know who's speedster this is but as you can see it appears to be in final paint but the left side looks like its melting. Anyway his point for sending this was to settle down as I caught the mistake early.
Thanks again Per, your project is really looking great BTW!
Justin

[Carrera_The_Kid]

Justin, appears to be shot at Freisingers, interesting outfit....

[JOP]

As Carrera The Kid said its taken down at Freisingers Porsche "Candy" factory
Its their 1958 1600S renovation and it is just the picture tricking us when looking at it.
They do really good jobs on all the Porsche models.
/Per

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Without that step ladder ! I looked and suddenly could see it. I think you are clever in finding the left side was too high. I would have been working on the right side. As you say a few mm's and your eyes see it. Especially so if the rest is perfect. Again how correct on lead and where the factory put it. Anything built out of continuous curves makes life so hard, even on how and where to place datum rods.

Experience.You are getting buckets of it

Roy

[JTR70]

Thanks guys, yes, these body shapes can certainly play tricks on the eyes.

That is exactly it Roy, the continuous flowing curves can really mess with your perception and the more you stare the worse it can get.
Thanks again!
Justin

2/12/16

tail skin fitment.

trying to gap and locate the skin around this new lid in its best averaged fit.

Its basically hanging in space so the challenge today was to both clamp and support it while sort of squeezing it into the correct shape.

Makeshift struts added anywhere I can to get control of it.


I have a few problems with Gap and elevation around the lid but its close.

With this side clamped I'm getting the same distance from the frame as the other side so its promising.



Once its all dialed in I can open the lid and begin more accurately positioning that upper Bulkhead flange I removed a while back.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[bbspdstr]

OK, I have a strong metal stool, a gallon can and an old auto screw jack, but what size sheetmetal (or deck) screws and larger diameter washers (of what thickness) should I use for the rear lid positioning?

Just kidding, but my point is: that's exactly what the "pros" do. "Mock-ups" and "paper dolls" of templates, tracings of needed cuts in metal and shapes to be made in cardboard and heavy paper, tacking with weld or screwing or Cleco-ing parts together before any serious final work gets done. Visualization of how it should look "by eye" beyond a measurement. "Walk-arounds" and views from a distance can mean more than any tape measure, but that tape can also be mandatory if the "eye" is fooled...back-ups need back-up. A similar car to look at, another set of eyes; even non-car people can pick up things a jaded eye may not.

It's based on common sense.....but the hardest for me to learn has been patience. That's such an important ingredient in successful recreation of an existing design like a 356. No flat straight areas on a 356? That's not true...there are a few edges of things...

If one gets perplexed and frustrated , one should walk away and think about it. Come back fresh and usually an answer will be there as to how to approach the challenge d'jour.

For me, when 'stuck' I'll watch the appropriate section of "Made by Hand" and either see something that relates to my "problem".....or I'll fall asleep and get needed rest.....

Good on ya, Justin
-Bruce

[JTR70]

You know it Bruce, this is a cutting edge shop with all the latest gadgets and lazers. I'd like to give you the specs on those large washers but that is now a closely guarded trade secret. Unfortunately the reality is that I only have my tiny brain and some junk I have laying around on hand to keep this project moving forward. That alone gives you some clue as to the peril this build is in. What really keeps me on track are the constant references and cross measurements with my car ( also the OG speedster shell) and just going with my gut and what my eyeballs tell me looks "the part". That's about as scientific as it gets around here. Oh and yes, like you said just trying to look at from just about every angle possible for sure. Hopefully in the end that will have been enough.
Thanks again Bruce!
Justin


2/14/16 More tailskin fitment


Here is an example of inspecting it for consistent and even fitment from almost every angle as Bruce mentioned. Laid on my mat and stared straight up at it checking and measuring for even fitment and spacing from the chassis. Also its distance away from it as compared to my car. Its getting pretty close here.

I'm liking the corners of the frame in relation to the tail light holes etc.

About as close as I hoped to get.

Another sight marker was levelness with Trevor's weld joint on the lip to the edge of the frame's cross member. Again just using any additional sight marker I can to cross check and help validate that yes, this body panel is nearly in the sweet spot.

The corners were sagging so to bring them up with the edge of the lid I used these to draw them up.

Once I got the tail basically secured I removed them and it relaxed away again.

All the while the center is a touch too proud.

Other than these slight issues at the edge of the closed lid I'm really comfortable with the rest of the skin's fitment so now the basic plan of attack is to securely anchor the lower to mid areas of the tail then cut the upper free and try to manipulate it for a smooth fit against the lid. Hopefully I can pull itoff without disturbing the shape of the rest of the panel; We'll see...
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[bbspdstr]

Can't wait until I get to that point!







Even with a jig (finished with that tomorrow) there is constant measuring, test-fitting and realignment to be done...and THEN the skin begins to go on and it all gets worse. Again, thank you Justin for giving me a lead into what lies ahead!

-Bruce

[roy mawbey]

Bruce,

Just like Justin's photos and work descriptions yours show equally the way to achieve success in even attempting this work, is patience and the fact you already know what you are aiming for.A long time ago I mentioned to Justin I liked his collection of body work clamps.Until you see sometimes so many of these clamped and ready for welding action you really begin to realise tools and inspection items as well as body bracing matter so much.

These involved jobs are far more daunting than probably most guys would imagine. How important yet again, to say if you don't prepare first with all the right kit and still expect instant success, then your way forward will be very hard. The thought of welding it all up and then looking at the finished result looking ' off ' in places would really depress me !!!

I have noticed the panels from Trevor seem to me going together so well on Justins car. Sure they have to be put in the correct place lining up with original items that is not easy, but it seems to me they are working well.

Great thread. !!

Roy



Roy

[bbspdstr]

Roy, thanks for the kind words....but I just have "time in grade" and am very impressed at the results all around Justin's site that are posted by those doing their first work as hobbyists. THAT'S how I started as I was unable to afford anyone better to do work on my own 356s, so I did it myself...still learning.

One word about Trevor's panels: Trevor keeps the hobby alive with panels available through only a few vendors (if at all)..and they are a "good starting point." They rarely just install themselves without a lot of fitting, modifying and often revamping what he provides. A hobbyist is often out-of-his/her-depth in this case if there is a lack of tools, equipment or experience.....or Ron Roland's book hasn't been read carefully.

I believe Trevor is so in demand that his QC is compromised too often.
He is VERY talented and knows what's right or wrong.....IF he would carefully do himself or inspect the parts made by any help he has prior to release.

Case in point is the rear firewall I am installing in the above-pictured posting. The holes for the hinges were not in line and then, standing back, one side (the left) double-walled bracket was welded together askew, so the hinges could never stay in alignment while in their arc. So the misaligned mounting holes were not the issue, just the tip-off to look deeper, measure more......and spend the time to redo.

Thankfully, like Justin, I have an unfinished Speedster I can reference that is a mere half-hour away with easy access for careful measuring, templates and photos.

The beat goes on......

-Bruce