Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[bbspdstr]

Installing the reliefs in the mount flange profile for the lateral embossment where the pan halves meet so the tunnel can sit flush.
Justin

Huh?

Justin, are you letting Phil keep track of your time as he does of his on Foamcar? I am used to thinking - best result for the least time- a business necessity- so I can only admire your perspicacity, dedication and talent to an area that no one but you will see.
I would be starting here:
http://www.restoration-design.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=rd&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P127T1

I worry about "survivor cars"....really nice 356s that come in with easy answers to questions like "what's wrong in this picture?"



-Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Bruce
I have even started a log of taking measurements for John

No challenge in buy that tunnel from resto design, right Justin?

Nothing wrong with that picture: just the new, improved support for the rocker.

Phil

[John Pierce]

I should make a spreadsheet with all the pertinent info and post it here! Thanks Phil

[bbspdstr]

I'm finally getting it now! You guys had other lives to draw upon and the 356 hobby is just that!

Damn ADD! My resume reads like this:

• Almost didn't graduate with my high school class due to poor math skills.
• Went on to Art School to improve the doodling I had done in lieu of paying attention in high school
• Then taught elementary school art for a year,
• Got Drafted anyway,
• Went in the USAF to fly,
• Couldn't,
• For the last 43 years tried to earn a living fixing old Porsches

So, what's a "spread sheet" if not what we get donated to cover nicer cars in the shop?

[JTR70]

Hey Bruce,

Yikes, no way, this project was not a bid job. I would have absolutely refused to do it had the Doc insisted on a set budget. This is strictly by the hour plus whatever parts I need to finish it correctly so I can tell you to the minute how many hours I've put in since the day it showed up at my door or I can have Phil tell you. I have no where near your experience and expertise but with my limited amount of exposure with these cars I know that there is always the sleeping dog of deep hidden rust and extra work lying in wait to bite you right on the ass. (this frame of course did not disappoint) All of which you simply can never account for until your waist high in it. Then to have added stressor of my hourly worth nose diving because I'm now locked into a set price for labor and I just discovered more of it I have to do to complete the job; Its too depressing to even think about and quite un-motivating to continue moving forward as well. I've already experienced that with a speedster several years ago and won't make the same mistake twice. The rusted out conduits are a perfect example of this, I never would have dreamed they'd be shot. But thanks to time, the laws of thermal dynamics and the price of these cars going up the "new Donor grade" 356's are more rotted out then ever before. If this was a set budget job I could have never foreseen this trouble and those old conduits would have most likely stayed in there too. This goes back at your earlier statement of the best job for the time and money and what can be seen and not be seen. Being in a locked in budget predicament I would be well underwater by now and of course would be looking for my best way out to cut corners instead of concentrating on how to best to repair it. I would have closed that tunnel up with them, omitted the photos of the damage on this thread and moved on. They'd of worked and by the time the worms of grease would have made themselves known I'd probably be 5-10 years removed by then and could claim "oh they weren't leaking back then"... I don't want to be that guy or be forced into that position so this is why I am strictly by the hour until its finished or he pulls the plug on the project which he is always free to do at anytime. Also if I spend an hour working on someone else's project that's an hour I didn't spend working on my car. By the same token I'm not milking the poor guy either and am all for saving time and grunt-work when I can. On several occasions I have weighed the cost of replacement versus my time to fix it. The tunnel is a perfect example RD wants 1025.00 for a new tunnel, the time it took me to re-flange and convert the original to a T1 still put us at well over 300.00 in savings over buying their new one. The rear frame section runners and cross member a while back was just the opposite. It was far cheaper to have Steve Hogue knock out those new panels than to pay me to clean all the mount flanges, fix the rust and old accident damage to the left side. A far cleaner end result as well as saving money.


This flange detail you referred to literally took 10 minutes to cut shape and reweld.

Its part of my OCD to replicate as many details as I can within limits.
I realize you, as a restoration shop with all sorts of overhead, and several employees who are depending on you to keep them busy for a paycheck must Bid jobs to keep new work flowing through the doors. The wheels must stay greased every month but as you answered for yourself in your second post this is strictly a hobby/ voluntary project taking place in my spare time after "work". Again a luxury of this not being my livelihood (& it never will be BTW)is that this is completely optional where you must stay within budget absorb and repair any unforeseen work as best as possible under the circumstance and move onto the next deal. I love my other job.

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

The ' doc' will get a car with no hidden areas to come up and bite him. Its history is now world wide. In fact your name is now world wide as I think so is Bruce's. I have heard both your names come up from people I hadn't met before regarding 356 matters. In both cases they were very positive remarks. The same went for Vic from the registry and over here Mike Smith is well respected.

If I had to take my car for work ( so far never had to ) then I would use Mike Smith PRS without question, the same for Bruce or yourself or Vic if I lived near you.

Reputation is important you can usually get the idea over the course of a few years if you read all the forums. Those that never get a bad report can I think be trusted. Those that have raced and prepared cars for doing that and also have operated a company repairing 356 for 40 years, would always be my first choice.

NOW Justin, taking into account the hours you must be working on the cars and writing such good reports please tell me about your main job you mentioned at the end of your last entry. MAIN JOB????? You have time for a main job did I read that correctly??

Roy

[bbspdstr]

Justin,

MAIN JOB????? You have time for a main job did I read that correctly??

Roy

Roy, thank you for the kind words. Still, it amazes me that some of the guys here (or in any hobby) can get time to work on their cars whilst (did I use good British?) having 'regular' employment. THEY 'get it.'

Justin, thank you for the explanation of your situation with 'the cars' and I hope you didn't take my comments too seriously. Truly, it was self-deprecating humor describing my oft second guessed lot in life.

My avatar Speedster was sold to someone who knew that I would only rebuild it after my racing crash (in it) by using his money and making it a 'shop job.'

Thus, it is back to being as nice as I made it for myself before my crash, fixing the remnants of the previous 3 crashes by 3 previous owners/drivers. How did I do that for myself when my A Coupe is getting worked on now in 'starts and fits'? It was to be finished this summer, but the real problem IS 'doing it for a living' in my own business!

It's 'small business' that's a cheeky bugger...with it's time demands, distractions, the need for better time management than I possess and overhead that is affected by financial feast or famine, so here is how I was able to do the ($3,000) Speedster for myself:

I sold my bigger business to a former employee in '93 and took a job in another established restoration shop for a couple of years. I was paid well and had predictable hours and responsibilities. I worked with my hands on interesting cars (naturally including old Porsches) including a '25 Rolls Woodie 'Shooting Brake' (or was it Break?), and '26 Plymouth Convertible, an Austin Healey 3000, a Jag 150 d/h, etc.

The most important thing was that I had weekends, evenings and holidays during which I could work on my own Speedster in my home shop, to go racing, to attend family events, to travel.

Then, people would approach me with..."So, when ya opening up again?" Amazingly, I re-entered the craziness that is Small Business, the anti-fun. I'm a slow learner.

So, now I am envious of not just the ability I see with Justin, et al, but of their time available to pursue the 'correct' way to restore a 356, regardless of model or type, for personal satisfaction or for a Patron. I am glad that Justin knows that the business end is not where the fun is, it's that detailed expression of the term 'restoration.'

Maybe I should take my 96 year old mother seriously when she alternately asks what I plan to do when I grow up or when I'll get a real job....

[JTR70]

Thank you very much Roy and thank you for sharing that! Those are a few heavy hitter names of the 356 world and while it was nice to be mentioned in the same paragraph I would certainly not consider myself in any regard at that level. I am just a regular guy toiling away in his garage but if I can share a few experiences that might help the next guy along I'm happy to do it. It was nice to hear for Bruce's sake, that his unsolicited reputation amongst 356 heads over on the other side of the pond is a positive one. As for my regular job I've been a Private fitness trainer for over 20 years. I've maintained my own set of clients and it has provided me a really fun and interesting living with a lot of freedom and latitude.( Most important being the last two I mentioned) Its been a fun ride where I get to hang out, visit and get to know interesting and successful people from all walks of life; all done while I torture them for session and pay me to do it.
So when I used to stop by my buddies shop back in the late '90's between clients I'd find him under a 356 sweaty, dirty, cussing, and at times throwing tools across the shop out of pure frustration. It was very entertaining and amusing. I'd get into my car to head to my next appointment and I distinctly remember telling myself,"man I'm so glad I don't do that shit for living, I love my job!" So fast forward about 15 years and I find myself on my way home after a tough session under the Doc's car sweaty, dirty an tired and the main lyrics to an old Nine Inch nails song describes exactly what's happened: " I was up above it!.....Now I'm down in it!" The only thing that keeps me sane is the knowledge that it still remains only hobby.

Hey Bruce, No, not all. My detailed explanation was more for the Doc since he checks on occasion and I wanted to be clear that I'm not milking him for hours and the goal is the best repair possible performed within a reasonable amount of time. Your story concerning the realities of ownership of a restoration shop rings true. My neighbor Rick who will be shooting paint on my coupe had his own Hotrod shop in town with 10 guys working for him, several bays and a monthly nut of about 15K to support it all. The money was flying out the door as fast if not faster than it came in and at best all he was doing was churning money at the end of every month. All the while stressed and having no fun playing with cars anymore. He's been out of it for several years and has his own little hobby shop where its strictly about the fun and enjoyment.
Thanks again you guys! Justin

[JTR70]

8/24/14

Tunnel finally mounted in the chassis for good!

Tied up the last of the prepwork including hole punching the mount flanges and getting the underside cleaned and in a good coated of epoxy sealer.

Went ahead and shot some satin black over it for the finished look.

Tunnel mounted for the final time. I can hardly believe it after what it took to get here but we finally arrived.

Profile reliefs to the mount flange I added earlier is allowing everything to fit together snuggly.

Adjusting and squeezing the sides where necessary as the screws are installed. I should be plug-welding by tomorrow. Thanks for looking! Justin

[bbspdstr]

Thanks, Justin...great rap session and for you, a wrap session on the tunnel....(segue back into the thread's origin)

For reference, here is a picture of my old Speedster's original interface of tunnel and floor lateral 'hump.'

I have seen many 356s where the fitting was not as good as this (or yours) and was not forced into a weldable proximity. On this one, the last spot weld was forced and then the builder stopped and began on the other side. Many original gaps I've seen have been rather spacious at that junction. One of the many "no two alike" areas of a 356.
-Bruce
(edit) I'm sorry the glue residue from the carpet I yanked up masks the weld spots and that I have yet to learn how to add circles and arrows to a picture, but the fact the spot welder, by nature, would crush the tubular shape of the lateral front and rear floor overlaps would make this an area to avoid in assembly on the chassis jig and thus in accurate restoration. Just a detail but maybe a nicely finished plug weld (or more) would go unnoticed and make it all stronger.

[John Pierce]

Justin,

Quite an accomplishment! Especially looking back to what you had to start with. I'll definitely be referencing these images when I get to this point with my rebuild. Thanks again for posting all these great details.

JP

[JTR70]

Thank you Bruce and thanks for the confirmation photo.

Your pic and description of the area sounds identical to my original floor. The embossment is a bit pounded down just as it hits the tunnel flange. The embossment of this new floor is so shallow that one strike of a hammer would about erase it entirely.

Thanks a lot John! I am really glad to know that these photos are helping. One word of caution though while a lot of the build details remained similar throughout the production run there are just as many detailed differences with our frames being an A and yours a T6. I highly recommend consulting with Bruce, Tom, Dave or Phil to make sure the details your seeing here are going to be correct for your car. Wish I could offer more advice but T5 and 6 are not my strong suit and having no reference car here doesn't help either. Thanks once again you guys! Justin

8/25/14
Tunnel welding begins.

Very happy to post that the remaining pluming details around the tunnel bulkhead are complete. The clutch cable tube end was the last one finished today.

The new tubing is a hair larger in outer diameter and the protruding tip of this conduit is the eventual mount that the Bowden tube slips onto. I wanted to make sure there were no fitment issues with it so I thought it best to recycle the original tip.

The new tube was cut even with the bulkhead and the end was flared to both ensure it was thoroughly attached to the wall and to offer a smooth transition as the cable is fed in.

All welded up.

After tying up that loose end I finally began welding the tunnel on starting from the center and working outward. Should have the plug welds wrapped up by tomorrow. Thanks for looking! Justin

[bbspdstr]

Removing that tunnel plate today to remove what's left of an original floor in an A, I counted 46 spotwelds. I guess the workers at Porsche didn't want them to move or be REmoved!

This is a sickness, counting spot welds! Before Justin got going on all this, I just knew it was a LOT of spotwelds and a PITA.....

-Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Great detail work Justin and nice photo documentation.

Bruce: "This is a sickness, counting spot welds! Before Justin got going on all this, I just knew it was a LOT of spotwelds and a PITA....."

At least it is not a fatal disease - that we know of anyway.

Phil

[JTR70]

Don't Blame me Bruce, I knew there were a lot as well but it was Jack who actually counted them; We may need to get him evaluated.

Thanks a lot Phil!