Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[Phil Planck]

Looking forward to your pocket beating. Nice work, as usual above. One of the benefits of all of my firewood cutting is I saved one nice stump to make a bowl depression in for forming metal. Will post a picture under tools when I start making it.
Phil

[JTR70]

Thank you for that really nice post PW, very much appreciated! Its steadily headed in the right direction. I bump along in the dark and make plenty of mistakes along the way but hopefully my patience will pay off.

Hey Phil, yes, wood stumps are definitely a staple of old school panel beating. Thanks again you guys! Justin

7/22/14

Left Speedster windshield mount pocket fabrication.
Though they are small pieces these pockets prove to be one of the more difficult items to shape and replicate accurately. The difficulty being that its shape is doing three things at once as you move down the part. Its a teardrop bowl first but its spine is also bowing inwards as you move down to the tapered point. Then as all this is going on the outer lip is tapering asymmetrically. A lot contours happing at once in which a basic U-shaped piece of metal doesn't lend itself easily without a lot of reliefs and shrinking. The plastic models I made all those years ago proved to be invaluable once again. After several failed attempts at a basic shape I finally found my way. You just have to keep trying.

Going back 15 years this pair of cups was made for my coupster also based from the same plastic models I'm using now. I made the models but it was my dear friend and late mentor Greg Parker that actually beat this pair into shape. I think I might have held the torch or something but the real fabrication was his effort. So needless to say I was starting from ground zero in figuring out how I was going to make this new pair. As a side note in doing this current cup project I remembered back then I relied a lot on Greg to help me out my "fabrication jambs" such as this one. I also remember telling myself that I needed to learn how to do these things on my own because "Greg won't always be here to do it for you." Sadly that eventually turned out to be true. Anyway just an old memory I wanted to share.
Trial and error below.

First attempt and thought. Profile around a piece of tubing? No good, too rudimentary and lacked the required tapered shape.

Rudimentary profile with a twist in it?

Some promising aspects...

This gave a few of the key compound contours I was looking for but it was short in areas and I eventually abandoned this idea as well.

Rolling the metal into a tapered cone shape and cutting out a basic pattern? Wrong again.

My tear dropped and profile tapered mallet head? Yes! I finally found the right "hammer form" to give the rough basic shape I needed to build off of. Eventually I get there.

After several failed attempts I now had my first basic "usable shape". A ton of nip and tucking yet to do but I at least had my base to work from. unlike the pieces Greg made for me all those years ago I wanted this generation to have a proper mount flange. As you can see I took a several bites along the lower flange to create the right asymmetrical contoured outer profile.

closer but a lot of lines yet to tighten up.

Just glad I was over the basic fabrication hump.

Mocked up here next to its eventual home the A-pillar closing panel. The left outer flange will eventually incorporate into the closing panel flange as originally. However the factory part I'm sure was made from one piece of sheet steel.

This was as far as I got on Saturday. I was heading to the show on Sunday so there was no more progress until last Monday.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[Impi]

Hi Justin following this with real interest. Since our time zones differ I am able to start most days with an update fresh from the workshop. I really appreciate that.
Whilst your cup piece can be made in one go I would rather make it in two halves split along the spine. This way you could control the curve in the spline with relative ease by curving the split. Gas welding will leave the material soft enough for further hammer work.
regards
Armand

[JTR70]

Thank you Armand, I am always very happy to hear that this heavy detailed stuff is of some interest. Your suggestion of fabricating the cup in two sections is of course another viable way of "skinning this cat" however in mind after completing this cup successfully building it in two pieces won't really save any work or heartache. It would still require a few slits along the sides to gather the "hump" length wise to create the right profile. I can see it also requiring some sort of dedicated hammer form to work each side. Again not saying its wrong but building it in one piece is working for me so I'm going to stick with what's working. Thanks again for the nice post and alternate suggestion; its always helpful to get another perspective on a project. Justin

7/22/14
Fine tuning that basic housing.


I had my basic shape but as you can see in this shot my part still lacked curve or bow along the spine to allow it to "hug" the model over its length.

Just as with Gregs parts he made for me this part too required relief cuts to allow me to gather up the excess metal to make this contour. overlapping excess on the "fingers" were trimmed as bending progressed.

double checking the profile as it went.

Mid section was about there however two more additional reliefs had to added to take the lower tip area in the rest of the way.

Happy with its overall length wise profile I laid down some welds to lock in this shape.

Closer still but more tightening and shaping to do.


My curved slapper made for a very nice hammer form to get that last little bit tightened up.

Almost there and ready to rebuild the lower mount flange section.

Mid-lower flange rewelded and set. The very top now needs to be curved tighter. relief cut markings in the upper flange here.

relief cuts in the flange and back wall to begin shaping the eventual dome.

To create the final upper dome shape a few more relief cuts had to be added to gather up more excess metal.

As the fingers were closed and overlapped the excess was cut right along the initial cut should leaving a really nice right weld joint.

Almost home with one more cut to make to bring that flap in.

[Drew.s]

Hi Justin
This is starting to get very interesting.
Your skill and patience with this car is amazing.
A couple of questions:
Did you consider Trevor's Pre-A stamped windshield mounts? I know they are expensive but the picture at.
http://www.356panels.com/dashboards.html
Looks very nice.
Secondly I have bought some very accurate pra-A door cappings from Mike Klapac in Colorado Springs but I need help with accurate placing of the holes for the side curtain sockets, would also appreciate some detailed pictures showing how they were brazed in.
Thanks in advance.
Drew

[JTR70]

Hey Drew,
Thank you very much for saying that!

I am very familiar with Trevor's offerings but that is a thousand bucks for a just pair of housings! That money still doesn't get me a windshield mount. It would make for a good start I suppose but I figure better a thousand bucks in my pocket than his! They also look a bit squared off in shape to me and there is more than good chance they would have to be cut, relieved or modified for clearance to work with the eventual post mounts themselves. So I see no advantage for me(speaking strictly for myself) in buying his parts. Besides if I did need them I'd ask Steve Hogue to knock me out a pair.
Sure, I'll get you some detailed shots of how those door tops are brazed together at the sockets. Thanks again Drew!!!!!!!

Continued: Left housing complete!

left housing in final contoured shape.

A very "worked" piece of metal but it is now the exact shape I was after.

Again its a really complex shape that spills toward the lower tip.

The actual closing dome will be welded directly to windshield post tube for the mount shank. I need lots of freedom for fine adjustment to ensure the windshield frame sits square, even and on the correct rake so this open end allows for that eventual stage. So Drew, there is one serious cut that would have to made to the top of Trevor's housings to build the actual mounts.

It looks the part. so far so good.

Again a very complex almost Bulls horn shaped profile.

One down one more to go.

Will begin fitting to the A-pillar frame and grafting it into the new closing panel next. Thanks for reading all of this! Hope it wasn't too boring and involved; just wanted to relay what went into making this part. Justin

[John Pierce]

Justin, that is amazing work! Your descriptions of not only what works but also the failures are really helpful. This will prevent the next guy from thinking that he is smarter than the average bear. Thank you for sharing.
John

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Fabrication art at its best Well done!

On a side issue, after my many PC problems recently and a sort of change of broadband supplier together with many software updates for my browser, the ' kunena ' message I was always getting is now no longer showing up Its working well, it must have been browser software causing it.

Roy

[JTR70]

Thank you John! Still making mistakes and cleaning up messes as it goes but hopefully it will come out okay.

Thanks again Roy! So glad to hear that you finally put that annoying message window to rest. I think you're right it was the older browser software.
Thanks once again you guys for the great words of encouragement, its always greatly appreciated! Justin

Drew, below are shots of both the front and back side curtain sockets which are original and never been disturbed.

Front

rear: As you can see attachment is quite minimal with only a puddle of brass to the outside lower edge of each socket to the rail. The tops are allowed to "float" in the holes so you need the tolerances to be close. Justin

[JTR70]

7/24/14
New a Pillar closing panel with Speedster relief cup all but ready to install for good.

Time to begin making these two into one.

Rough initial mock-ups checking for proper orientation of the pocket.

initial relief cut away section in the frame to make way for the pocket.

it was a good start but of course more had to be removed so the pocket could seat fully in between the rails.

Inner section of my wiz-bang gusset had to go to. Wasn't out of harms way as I initially thought.

Now that I had enough pocket clearance in the frame test fits for all three pieces could begin.

After several initial tack welds the pocket and closing panel were beginning to be a unit. It twisted and contorted a bit and definitely fought so lots of clamps were needed to tame it. It was also very tricky slipping the panel in and out between test fits with the pocket in place.

My new Speedster A-pillar closing panel in its final stages.

My gusset will need some TLC but will have to wait until the wall is in for good.

A few divots and welding scars to fill but it won't take much.

Once the old outer closing panel is installed over this new one it was originally perfected in lead. A quick application would perfect this area very easily. Just have a few more loose ends to tie up like sealing the cavity in a good coat of paint but I should have this installed permanently before Saturday. Thanks for stopping by! Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, just one thought about the pods you are fitting. I don't know about others experience, but on some Speedsters I have had significant difficulties removing/installing the allen head bolt that holds the windshield posts down. Some pods are so short that it is impossible to remove or start the bolt with a allen wrench attached. Pod too shallow. This is a factor on cars where the threads are binding, even slightly, so that they cannot be turned with a finger when the bolt is nearly at the end of removal and on installation, particularly if the threaded receiver is tight in the body. In those cases, I have had to turn with them with Vicegrips, which can leave marks on the hardware. Bruce?

[JTR70]

Absolutely right Jack, thanks. I quickly became aware of this clearance issue as I fabricated the mounts on my coupster.

The trajectory of the mount shank and the shape of the cups do begin to head toward one another toward the tip of the bolt. As I was building this mount clearance around the head was one of many issues along with of course proper alignment and levelness of the mounts themselves. There was a lot going on at once to say the least. That's why I would say this part of the conversion is by far the hardest part and most critical to get right. With that in mind I did make this pocket on the deep side as insurance. I forgot to mention that detail so thank you for reminding me! Justin

[bbspdstr]

OK, so I have a special Allen wrench for Speedster posts. Cut down on the short part so there is just enough hex for the socket of the bolt and the rest of the long part with several layers of shrink tube to protect any paint if necessary but hardly compromising the limited degrees of turning available.

Porsche did better later with the D/Rdstr's frame post fastening.

Earlier in this thread I was going to say that I wish I had not just saved the now-un-remembered numbered sections of the Speedsters I've parted out (I didn't), but the half-cones that had come off with the rest of the surrounding sections with the posts that were stuck in that damned receiving tube that no one put Never-Sieze in/through/on.

I never thought of this before, but why not Locktite just enough threaded rod into the pin of the posts and then use a Nyloc nut to secure the needed compression? (Or would that upset the 'originality' of the Speedsters or Pseudo-Pspeedsters.... )

Seriously, Justin.....what does your therapist think of all your incredibly detailed, impressive and accurate work? I've mentioned it to mine and she thinks I'm nuts.......

No, really, I am blown away by your work. Please keep it up and sharing what you do.

Best regards,
-Bruce

[merbesfield]

I get it now. Duh, I didn't think about the fact that everything I was looking at was upside down! Not it all makes sense.

[JTR70]

Thank you very much for saying so Bruce! My "therapist" thinks that I am crazy too! She is very supportive and complimentary but doesn't get the whole classic car obsession thing. She's a gal originally from Texas and Spanish is her second language so I pick up a few words here and there; mainly as she's getting after me for something I did or did not do or in describing my mess. I'll try to spell it the way she says it: "yuonky, Yuonky" is what she says when she's out at my shop looking at what appears to her I'm sure as a sea of cars and parts littering my shop floor with a mixture of tools and grinding dust. This is easily translated into "Junky" Junky". I'll show her some rare part I might have and say hey this is worth X-amount and she just rolls her eyes and goes "yeah, very nice, I wouldn't give you 50 cents for it". We tease each other a lot so its all in good fun. She definitely thought the cars I took photos of at Dana Point were beautiful but unfortunately nothing in my immediate world looks like that. Hopefully one day though. Thanks again Bruce!

7/26/14
Left A-pillar conversion closing panel installed.

Finished up the last of the loose ends so this part could be mounted.

A bit more raw on the inside but its on the inside.

Definitely a long road but I finally had the part I needed.

Cavity cleaned and coated in primer. Still a lot of heat and welding yet to do around this small space so I don't know how much of it will survive but I tried.

Thought it much easier to weld and dress the plugs from the outside versus down in the seal channel.

New panel installed for the final time. Located the original hole for the data plate to help secure the lower flange while its welded.

Time to spoon that flap of metal over the gutter channel. A lot of clamps set to ensure it did not move during this process.

Leading edge closed tight over the frame as originally done. Plug-welding completed here as well.

All teed-up for the actually windshield mount and domed cap for this pocket. Repeat right side next. Thanks for looking! Justin