58367 The $75 Junkyard Carrera coupe restoration

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Your long block works well. You mentioned the gold Carrera badge. Here is a case where the badge does need re-plating if you can see that is the case. The finished result on your 356 body will need perfect badges in my opinion. The same with the Reutter NOS badge it must go on your car. ( Out of interest, my brother worked for some time in the parts dept of the main London Porsche agent AFN around 1961. About 5 years ago he gave me a brand new Reutter badge for my car and he sold on e-bay an assortment of gold plated badges including the Carrera ones. He had kept those for over 45 years!!
I didn't have the correct rivits with the flat spring fixing plate to secure the new Reutter badge so used some round headed screws and the then would you believe filled in the screw flats with filler and painted them silver to look like rivits I look at that badge often and tell myself I was a precision engineer for 49 years often working to parts of a micron and I did that bodge!! Your advice that it might be worth something tells me I must remove those screws and at least put decent rivits on it!)

So, your car among all those I have ever seen restored requires perfect badges please.

Cannot wait to see the paint on.

Bodger Roy

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy!
You make a lot of sense; I'll go ahead and get these emblems out to Victor here shortly for re-plating. I do have a pair of alloy rivets with clips for the Reutter badge. I think I heard they were originally brass or at least the heads were anodized gold when new? You were probably just so excited to mount that badge that you couldn't wait for rivets. Yes, I have seen a few guys use screws or even pop-rivets and they ended up bending the badge from the pressure. I'll be very careful not to do that. Thanks again for the good advice! Justin

[JTR70]

12/13/13

One more "Redo"


I few days ago I was so close to finishing up this left side but I just could not get a slight low-spot/wave to go away at the door to quarter panel transition.(green circled area) This area proved very hard to work on and to reach when I was doing my shrinking work several weeks ago. I knew it was still a little low when I was done but did not think it would hang around as long as it did. After my 3rd swatch of filler It was still slightly low!!! I was really hating the poor line and shape I was getting and in my mind the filler was getting thicker! I lost my temper with it and began bumping the low area sort of aggressively with a dolly from underneath. So much for all my shrinking work. I cracked the filler in several places and realized afterward the filler was no where near as thick as I had feared. Too late by then and to top it off this area began "oil canning" again. It was a rough day to say the least. I went back to considering a full fender replacement.

I could not risk any loose of detached filler so before the day was over I had wire-wheeled the entire forward area back down to metal. I also had to take it down anyway to try and stabilize the metal again.
While I was at it I also figured since I'm here trying for a straighter car with "less filler" I may as well address the factory leaded edge of this fender as well. I knew it was thick from my previous work closing the gap tighter with more lead however I had no idea how thick it actually was here. Above photo shows lead removed from the edge. I stopped at the rocker to fender joint; to go any further would open up a great big can of new worms besides its factory so I'll leave well enough...


with the door closed and the factory lead gone I was shocked at how poorly this cars panels were fitted! This body must have been built on a Friday afternoon just before holiday break.

Big gaps are of course expected but the horrible approach elevation at the fender is what bothered me.

You get an idea how thick the lead had to be to correct this deficit (green arrows) This is undamaged factory fitment and leadwork but while I'm in here I wanted to reduce the amount of "filler" period in this area.

It took a couple of good nights sleep to decide on exactly how I was going to approach this. I made up my mind to cut the fender just ahead of the original mount flange. This accomplished several things; it preserved the original flange, I could close about half the gap distance up by tightening the inner bend and by cutting ahead of the corner I could relax it and use the length to increase the approach height of the skin.

Here is the lower section peeled forward with the old corner bend relaxed. The "new" gap will require far less lead filler this time around. I was liking this so much better!! A you can see just like ANY 356 on the planet (no matter how "rust free") there is rust in the pinch seams; very mild though but still present. Getting late.. will continue my "detour" story tomorrow. Thanks for reading this! Justin

[Pat]

Justin

Your work is sooooo good -- how about I send Frieda out to you to massage!? I wish I had your talent.

[JTR70]

Pat, thank you Sir! Just doing the best that I can with what I have available to me. This is the side of the car I'll be climbing in and out of most of the time and I really needed to feel better about this area. I was feeling it was just too much lead and bondo here! Factory lead or not filler is filler and I really had to try and reduce it while I repaired this section of skin...again. Thanks again Pat!

The portion of this vertical run I'm addressing is now relaxed forward. I decided on a paint's stick thickness for the "new" baseline gap. This width requires only a sliver of lead to achieve the tighter gap I'm doing and also allows for a more stock factory wider set gap if desired in the future. The paint stick inserted here also acted as nice hammer form as I tapped the metal forward.

New basic gap now established. The very top gives an idea of where it started. Obviously a filler strip of metal will be needed on the edge of the skin.

With the gap set my next "filler" reducing chore was the level of this skin at edge. Before I could do this I had to decide weather I was going save this original fender or just replace it.

After several hours of debate I decided to stay conservative by attempting to save the original fender skin. Besides the back portion actually turned out good and I did not want to throw away any more time that I had already spent on it. I had destroyed enough already. I cut this badly worked section free at the rocker joint and just at the wired lip to preserve it. If it works out the only weld lines visible will be the upper length and rear vertical runs. I also was looking for more shouldered weld joint to reduce heat distortion.

My next decision was to either iron out this original piece or replace it with a fresh section of 20 gauge.

Either choice would require a run through an English wheel so I decided on saving this old portion again.

I made a trip over to my buddies shop to borrow his wheel. (another tool I need on hand!) Its chalked up here. I spent several hours carefully and slowly rolling this piece. I had to take care not to change its basic shape but to only level and realign its surface. I really need my car to be in the same room so I could check the progress as it went but his speedster body made for a good surrogate. Again doing my best with what's available to me...

First fit after getting it back home. I was unexpectedly surprised how good it fit. My biggest fear was twisting it out of shape with the wheeling.

Basic contour and shape are good.

Besides smoothing the surface another benefit of the wheeling is that it hardens the metal. This panel feels very resistant to "oil canning" now as it was doing before. That could certainly change after welding but for now its good!

The required skin filler strip was next. New piece cut with a good tight gap and ready for its first tack weld here.

New piece fully tacked and in for a test fit. I ground these heads smooth and gas welded this portion on the rest of the way by melting the two ends together with no additional material introduced. It was nice not have to grind down a weld.

Old panel section tacked into final position and fine trimming the excess off to the newly positioned flange.

Forward section now fully welded and dressed.

My new base line gap and skin elevation. Gap is still wide and slightly irregular but will require far less filler than originally to be perfect. That's all I was after, not trying to reinvent the wheel just wanted to feel better about this junction.

Here is where I am as of this entry. The slow and tedious process of tacking and welding this old piece back in.

Taking extra time to ensure both sides a aligned to avoid creating a tension or trigger point in the surface. Not out of the woods yet! Only after its welded will I know if this was successful or not.

If it fails to turn out like I want I'll salvage the forward section I fixed since it will be needed for this new fender replacement. Hopefully I won't need it. Thanks for stopping by and looking at this new mess! Justin

[Phil Planck]

Justin
Great work, especially with the gas welding and wheel. It looked like the lower portion of the fender at the door was inboard before you removed it, besides being too far reward. Bending that flange out allowed that to come outward, right?

[JTR70]

Hi Phil, Thank you!

Yes, cutting the skin just after the original corner then relaxing it out straight allowed me to gain height for the "new" corner bringing it closer to the door level. However I did let the skin come back down to its original level at the rocker flange. I did not want a step in there or a pocket for moisture and or blow-sand to accumulate. Correcting everything below would require getting into both the rocker and striker panel and at this stage I just don't want to go that deep. That fitment is the way it left the factory no matter how disappointed I am with it so I'll let it slide. I'm just happy I was able to improve the section I directly had to address. Both the new gap and panel edge will still require lead but only about 1-2MM thickness of it. Before this area was pushing a solid 4+MM of lead thickness to create the line. The requirement of "less" lead was the real goal. Thanks again Phil! Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

That is some story. Your decisions so far seem to be good ones. Thats a real nightmare job. Tell me, the curved wheel well curvature is wired. Did you wire the section you just English wheeled before it was removed by you for this last repair as it seems, you have tacked up to the rear section to give a perfect blend.

I must find my slides on the exact same sort of repair I made to my car all those years ago. This was also on the same side as yours but the passenger side on mine. I cut out a section of rust that every normal 356 has but left the lock plate section in place. I remember the rust occured maybe 1/4 " away from the lock plate section. I also found a lot of lead where it joins with the rocker. My rocker panel is original but the join was lead messy. My replacement was I guess 4" wide curved down to meet the rocker. I didn't even know about english wheels then. I formed the panel section by eye and gas welded it in and then leaded it.

It did not distort so much as the door panel repair and has no sign of rust after 37 years. But Justin I do remember the hell I went through doing it. I was so pleased I was able to keep the lockpost panel untouched as it gave me the curvature and allowed me to keep the door gapping okay.

I will get my welding and leading slides converted at some time just for me to relive the pain

Well done for being the perfectionist it will not be a disapointment when you finish it. Always so interesting your efforts.

Roy

[JTR70]

Thank you so much Roy, its a little more improved than it was anyway. It sounds like most cars received their share of lead filler at the rocker to fender joints.

I cut the skin at the wired edge and left it with the car. One of my goals was to not cut that wire and besides it had to be out of the way to wheel the entire section. I would really like to see your old slides from back in the day when you tackled your car! Looking forward to it and hope you'll find some time to locate them. Thanks again Roy I really appreciate your support through this mess! Justin

[DG58INNM]

Justin, quite the nice work as always! I get a laugh thinking about how much better your car is than the day it left Germany. Man, your car did have a bunch of lead there. They all do, but I think yours was exceptionally deep. Nice fix.

Thanks for the comments on my battery box. Foolish of me to start in on yet another project I suppose. But whether I keep the C or sell it (still undecided), I couldn't leave it around without a nose. It looked sad and forlorn out there in the shop unable to smile at me!

DG

[JTR70]

Hey David,
Thanks for saying so but with my new HD hindsight 20/20 vision I should have let this sleeping dog lay. All because I lost my temper in the first place (bumping the panel with that dolly because I thought the filler was getting to thick) I opened up this completely unnecessary can of worms and lost 3 weeks in the process! I probably would have been done block sanding this side by now. I have to stop dwelling on it because that's what I've been doing this last several weeks. Its been so dis-hearting and tough to keep working to correct this mess I made that I could not even bring myself to update this thread until this evening. Anyway, I think your smart to hang the front end on your coupe. If you decide to sell its worth a hell of a lot more money with its nose on.. Thanks again! Justin
1/8/14
Rear fender repair failure

I was so close! I had most this panel stitched back in with very little distortion. However, Once I made the turn down the vertical seam this whole repair went sideways in a hurry! The wheeled patch was of course now harder so once I joined it to the softer vertical and flatter section it began contorting the profile. The middle was now a bit low so I began bumping it up a little, then it was too high then I decide to put a little torch heat to it and shrink it ... it was like pouring gasoline on the problem and its shape got worse... all that ran through my mind was why did you FUCK with this; now its going to need as much filler as before to be correct by the time I get stabilized again!?!?! I kept messing with it for a bit longer and as I continued a portion of that patch began oil canning again. I completely lost it and punched it square in the middle of that panel. It was a done deal then. I had created such a mess of it that I was simply in over my head at this point.

New fender replacement section.

This original fender section from my '56 coupster project is actually in really nice condition. there is no filler on it (yet)and has only some mild waves across the reflection.

However I had cut it short years ago so I had a bit of preparation to do before I could mount it. I can only spend an hour a day working on this car so it has taken me these past few weeks to finally get this panel to the point where I could tack it on the car.

First order of business was to add a new length section. I took extra time and care during this process. I'm on my last chance; if I burn this one I'll have to buy a new fender.

Welded it in small section and dressed it carefully as I went. My goal was to have this seam smooth from the inside.

After several 1 hour sessions it was done.

I hate cutting the wire inserts for fear of future breaks but I had no choice. To make it the strongest that I can The Lead is sharpen like pencil to make room for more weld and once dressed the eventual skin with staggered weld joint will wrap over it for additional support.


Ready to join the leads here.

Next decision was how much of the old fender to keep. I wanted the shortest distance possible, remove as much old sin in the process and stick to the crowned areas for reduced deformation and better shouldered support. This is what I eventually left after a few days of debate. While I continued to prep the donor section for welding, trial fitments and rust removal I was left with this giant hole to look at for over a week. A recurring mental clubbing over the head as to my stupidity!

I literally had to walk over to this side of the car to keep me going at times It really has been a dark couple of weeks on this car..

One of many trail fitments along the way. Planning and double checking to ensure a tight joint once the final cut was made.

rechecking with the cut section.

Welded on repair extensions now fully finished and dressed.

Inside was acid cleaned of old surface rust and wire wheeled. Finally ready for primer.

Sealed in DP40 now to ensure good coverage especially around the wire lip. Rusty edges are above the final trim line. This panel was after several weeks was finally ready to be tacked on.

[JTR70]

New section tacked in as of this afternoon. 1/8/14


I had finally climbed out of the hole I made for myself enough to update this thread once this was at least partially in.

Several adjustments to do as it goes but it at least is heading in the right direction.

Ever so slowly stitching this in. Continuing on tomorrow. Thanks for listening! Justin

[Phil Planck]

Justin
Bummer about your repair. But, if that panel fit before welding it in, then I would suspect most of your problem was shrinkage due to welding heat. Applying more heat with the torch would make it shrink even more. Water over the dam now. Here is what I have learned for long butt welds(mig or gas) that has worked for me. Tack every 3/4". Planish the tacks, then file/grind them almost flush. Planish again just the HAZ(heat affected zone) to stretch the metal back out. No continuous stich welding. Add another tack adjacent to each of the first tacks, alternating areas to keep heat down. Planish those tacks, then file/grind flush and replanish the HAZ. Repeat until all of the 3/4" gaps are filled in.
This technique controls the warpage caused by the shrinking as you go, rather than trying to tackle it after all of the welding is done. You can see the local distortion and address it before the next tack.

Phil

[MMW]

Good advice from Phil. If you are in a hurry then do not even start something like this. Repairs like this take patience.

[tperazzo]

Hi Justin,
I feel your pain! You will have a better fender in the end and three weeks is a drop in the bucket in this journey. Best of luck on the final welding.
Phil's method is exactly what I use too. From your pictures it appears you are doing the same too. That vertical edge at the door gap is the trickiest to hammer stetch because there is no access. My guess is that the new skin is also hardened due to the extension that was needed.
Late advice, but something to consider would be to add the 90 degree flange that goes into the door jamb first before welding the full fender on. Sure, it doesn't give you the same flexibility in controlling the elevation of the fender, but you mitigate the distortion on that edge. Food for thought....I know you will make it perfect in the end.
Take Care,
Tom