58367 The $75 Junkyard Carrera coupe restoration

[JTR70]

Great idea John, I'll begin a door skin repair thread before these shots and tips are buried and lost in the shuffle here.

Thank you Roy, that's very kind of you and I greatly appreciate your offer.

Bruce, I thank you very much for passing around the "donation tray" once again. Honestly at this stage in the game our site hasn't been outrageously expensive to maintain and while any monetary help would be quite welcome its certainly not required. The time you spend posting IE sharing your knowledge, builds, photos etc. is payment enough in my mind. That goes for all you guys who participate here. Asking for money to boot feels almost over the top if you get my drift. If ever the cost gets too out of hand I may rattle my tin can for a small donation but at this point we're fine. I'm just thankful to have such a great group of guys here to help make this place so fun to visit. Payment in full.

12/14/15

Home stretch with the headliner

Debated about padding for the B-pillars as they were a lot smoother compared to the A-pillars but eventually decided to even them out.

Stopped it at the apex of the corner like the A-pillar before to reduce material thickness along the seal channel.

Left B-pillar wrapped. Glad I put the padding in.

On the home stretch as you can see with only the sail panel remaining.

Right A-pillar padded and recovered with B-pillar finished out as well. All that remains is that tricky little back corner.

A fun break was to fit my steering column and try out the looks of that old Nardi I bought a few years back. It was a fun diversion.(Bill Brown: Does this wheel look familiar to you; this is the early steel hub Craig Stevenson bought from you several years back. At least you're who he mentioned buying it from)

Back to work: I'm going to close the left side first so I glued in the second layer of padding in preparation.

Very loose mock up fit to begin rough trimming to make it more workable.

Generous cut line to leave me enough spare material while at the same time creating a manageable piece.

Relief cutting the windows as well.

Much better. Now I can begin stretching and planning my attack.

My mind is set on getting a wrinkle free end result. The best chance of developing a flaw is in this corner. The back panel and garnish rail play a part in that danger so I mocked it up here to get a better sense of where the clearances need to be to achieve the final product I'm after. More later...
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,
How correct you are those back corners are the most difficult I am sure to get fitted, without wrinkles. I looked at a few photos of mine and you can see the result after 57 years of how they do wrinkle over time.

I also have been wondering how you get the join line to the roof panel perfect. Are you turning back the corner area a small amount and sticking that and then sticking that over and on top of the roof panel headliner? I guess it needs the glue to cover a fair area of material to give you the strength when pulling tight after the glue has taken?

Pick to show wrinkles :




Roy

[JR]

Justin,
The headliner is looking great!
Yes, it is a tedious process, but as you are doing, go slow and the outcome will show it.
When your done with this you'll be a Master at headliners!

Roy, thanks for the shot of your interior.
Looks great!
I have saved it to the 'Roy 356A Porsche File'!

Dick

[JTR70]

Thank you Dick! Certainly no master of headliners but I've learned a lot about the subject this time around. Masters can install these in 8 hours not 8 days.

Roy, I appreciate you posting that shot of your interior as it relieved a lot of pressure I was putting on my self to get it absolutely wrinkle free back there. Now that I see your original I'm reminded that its not the end of the world if there is an irregularity or two in those corners. Thank you!
Good eye, catching my window openings. I was going to eventually explain myself but I'll do it now.


This was a learning curve deal as I wrapped the upper quarter window frame. At first I was gluing directly to the outer leading edge but as I pulled and initially glued the material taut it created an angle that would eventually lead to trouble with getting the seal to mount and seat down flush.

Taking what I learn on that troublesome upper A-pillar which had to be tight against the frame to allow the windshield seal to seat I applied that lesson to the quarter window frame and began double gluing to the inside frame and to the flange. Don't know if it was originally done this way but it just creates the right surface for the seal to adhere to instead of asking it to do the "clamping". This wasn't done for added anchor strength though it certainly helps. The Glue I'm using is the proper professional grade Landau top glue and once it sets its almost "nuclear". I nearly destroy the material trying to get it loose again so I've also learned that it has to be right before I leave it overnight.

Taking Gordon's earlier warning about wrinkles after window install to heart I also decided to double glue the rear opening as well. This way the material is "set" and the install tension of the eventual rubber seal will have no effect on its tension creating a wrinkle. Just a theory by the way... we'll see if that holds.
As you can see I have this corner finished and glued. I'll post that next. Thanks again you guys!
Justin

[JR]

Justin,
I have been the 'gofer' helping on a 1969 912.



and currently the 1964 SC Coupe.



None of this is easy.
I think 8 hours might be a 'stretch' short in time.
They have been using a spray adhesive, don't remember the name, that cuts the drying and installation time over using brush on Contact type cement.
Can't have too many clamps can you?
Did you have the little clips for the front and rear of the headliner that goes on the top of the front and rear windows after the head liner is installed?

Same spray adhesive stuff is used in the interior carpeting as needed.

"Keep on Keepin' on!
Doing Great!
Dick

[JTR70]

Thank you! They're lucky to have you around for help Dick! The headliner clips for the front and rear you describe I believe are a B&C thing; A's only get glue. The glue I'm using BTW can be both a bush on and a spray on if you cut it with enough lacquer thinner to get it through a gun.

For carpet I can see spraying it on but for this job a brush is the only to go as I was doing very short narrow runs at a time. The overspray mess is another consideration. This stuff sets up quick even in this colder temperature. (for those who haven't done it) You just apply a coat to both the material and the body let it tack up for about 30-45 seconds then apply the material. It adheres quickly!

Clamps ensure a tight bond until it cures.

My buddy has a 5 gallon drum of it at his shop and was nice enough to give me a clean jar full for this little project. Its a bit on the pricey side but its what all the pros use. I can get the name if anyone needs it. He does at least a couple of interiors a year and a cabriolet top every once in a while and said this stuff goes pretty quickly. I can attest to that, this jar was filled to top and I felt a little bad as I thought he gave me way too much for such a little job but as you can see I used up almost the whole thing. I'm almost into the "need more" level on that label.

12/18/15

Headliner installation complete!

Put the finishing touches on this evening which finally put this little project to bed. A bit intimidating for my very first try but I learned a lot and hopefully can apply that new knowledge to the rest of the interior install as it goes.
Left sail panel from a few days ago:

Took a while to get my final approach together on how best to finish up this corner.

The very lower corner is the trickiest part as it hangs in space between the firewall and the sail panel flange. So it takes a bit of finesse to both glue it make the turn without structural support all the while keeping the tension on so it wouldn't wrinkle.

I eventually figured it best to go ahead and glue the rear wing under the back window and leave the very lower corner for dead last. You can see a wrinkle just above where I'm holding just begging to come back. It was a true PIA!

Corner finally set and glued. A small relief cut was required to gather up the excess so I could pull it tight to chase out the waves. This cut also allowed me to set the turn back deeper and more level with the firewall. Again without any structural help the bare material turn without the cut was too shallow and fast which would crowd the eventual garnish rail and back panel perhaps causing a wrinkle upon their installation.

Mock up with my garnish rail and paper template I traced from an original some time ago. I can live with that... onto the right side.

Same process of moving down the window openings to the firewall.

Right side lower corner glued and test fitted with rail and panel template for clearance.

Right side completed. Located the holes for the latch as well.

Based on Roy's pics of his original I guestimated the joint location for the center filler section. According to his photos the joint was just inside of the contour turn of the glass as it flattens out. I have to be within reach of that, anyway close enough for what it is and how much of it will ultimately show.

If you're a first timer like myself I'd strongly recommend installing in the same order. These rear sail panels are by far the toughest to get right and if you save them for very last you'll give yourself valuable time and needed experience working with this material while wrestling with the main portion of liner and the pillar wraps.

A few overview shots...





With this being my very first install did I screw up anywhere? Of course I did, in two spots. The first one was on the lower rear window run. I cut the earlier rough shape of it too GD low! Once I had the sail panel glued taut and in its best position this lower runner now missed the edge of the window frame. I tried every readjustment that I could but if I move it up where I needed it shock waves where sent through the sail panel. I just trimmed it too aggressively here; Lesson learned. I had to cut it off and graft a new section on. Of course the center lap joint wasn't going to conceal it, not that lucky. Once the window and back panel are installed however only about a quarter inch will remain visible so a little lucky.

My other screw up was that I went just a touch too far with my relief cut in the corner and of course it was just out of reach of my B-pillar wrap. However again once the seal goes on most of it will not show and its a back facing corner. At the very least if I had to screw up somewhere these are the most inconspicuous areas to do so. The final presentation should still turn out clean.

I'll be masking and getting it ready for its final coat of white next then it will be "done-done".
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[MMW]

Very, very nice! Thank you for sharing all the details too.

Please get the name of the glue because you never know when someone might need it. I'm guessing once the glue is applied & tacked up that there is no adjusting of the material when laying it down? Once stuck, no sliding into position?

[John Pierce]

Fantastic work, Justin! It turned out great. You're now a professional headliner installer Also, thank you for posting the detailed installation pictures and advise. I've already bookmarked this section for later use.

JP

[merbesfield]

Q: When using this glue do you have to worry about it oozing through the perforation holes or it discoloring the headliner in the future? Two of my cars, both with original HLs have stains around the edges. I have wondered what caused these stains. Rust from condensation or the glue aging? Can the "experts" offer advice? Thanks as always.

[JTR70]

Thanks a lot Mic! I'll be sure to get a shot of the can this glue came out of for future reference. You're right there is no real "sliding" adjustments to be had with this stuff. Once you apply it together that's pretty much it. You must repeal and sometimes add more glue for any position changes/adjustments.

Thank you John! I really hope this helps out in some small way the day you cross this bridge yourself.

Mark, as far as glue oozing through the holes it did happen a bit but wasn't too much of a problem as the application on both surfaces were thin and tacked up. The glue that did manage to bleed through was easily cleaned off with a bit of wax & grease remover solvent on a cotton rag. Still an effect clean up solvent even up to the second day. I did not use Lacquer thinner as its too harsh on the material.
The stains you refer to are of course due to moisture/mildew from leaky seals allowing it in and to absorb into the material. Water always finds a way. Old glue might discolor a little but would be very localized.

12/24/15
Little day dreaming and interior planning.

Per Kardex this car came with Tan carpet and black vinyl interior. I'll be staying true to that combo though with a GT touch added in.

Had a lot of fun mocking up this New/used tan carpet set I bought a few years back. It requires some imagination but its ever so slowly materializing.

A decision was needed here: On early '57 GT coupes this is what was installed. Black vinyl throughout with no carpeting. No pleats on the closing panels either. A very simple utilitarian layout.

The combination of carpet in back with black vinyl thresholds and kick panels where not really offered until about '58.


I decided I liked the color contrast of the rear in carpet so much better so I'll be resembling this interior very closely save for that passenger coupe seat and carpet binding. Also the rear panels will have the normal pleating for a more finished look.

I can almost see the finished product.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[Jack Staggs]

12/24/15

Wevo 915 shifter installed backwards?

[JTR70]

Good eyes and a good catch Jack! & thanks for pointing out that I had assembled that tower backwards that shifter is for my coupster project but was using it as a mock up for my eventual shifter I've got planned.

For improved ergonomics the plan is to machine an adaptor plate that will move the eventual 901 shift tower back wards as far as I can highlighted in green. It will utilize the stock T1 mount tabs of the shifter and heater control with an internal pinch clamp at the very back to capture the back lip of the opening. This eventual plate equals no physical changes to the stock tunnel configuration and will be completely reversible by unbolting. I was just spotting where the new shifter will eventually be. Another future posted side project for sure. Thanks again for the tip on that 915 tower mistake.
Justin

[bbspdstr]

Q: When using this glue do you have to worry about it oozing through the perforation holes or it discoloring the headliner in the future? Two of my cars, both with original HLs have stains around the edges. I have wondered what caused these stains. Rust from condensation or the glue aging? Can the "experts" offer advice? Thanks as always.

I am far from an 'expert' but I watched an Amazon channel TV series for the first time last night after the Christmas festivities slowed down. One son is hooked on it so I decided to check it out. It made me think of this question.

It's called "The Man in the High Castle." A lot of old Mercedes in the first episode, and the interior shots showed a LOT of the 'stains' at the edges of the headliners to which you refer. I'm guessing it's glue, nothing else.

I was never 'monied' so I've never owned a NEW 356, but a few that I've had were only 5 or 6 years old, and they were not at all rusty nor did they have leaky seals...but they had that darker tan 'shadow.'

My removal of headliners of 356s and later cars showed those areas were the most tenacious to un-peel, yes, especially where the muslin was. The glue was a darker amber by then, so it's my own guess that it was the color leaching out through time, heat and the make-up of the headliner material. Cloth-backed and a light-colored thin vinyl layer would make for an easy staining where the most glue was.

As for clean-up, IF it can still be had in your state, here is the best stuff I have used:

Sure, typical 'wax and grease remover' will work, as will naphtha or mineral spirits (or lighter fluid)...but this 3M product has been the fastest yet safest chemical to clean-up after things like rubber glue that has ever been taken off the shelves in PA.

All of our chemistry, from Safety-Kleen solvent to lacquer thinner has been neutered....but I digress. I guess it's been decided that careless stupid people should be protected from themselves..........I'm guessing those idiots can't read.....at least warnings or instructions.

Hey, I can gripe about something that affects my business the day AFTER Christmas, can't I? Hey, I'd pay for a few cans to be sent to me if it's still available some state outside of PA.......jus' sayin.'

-Bruce

[JOP]

Thx Bruce for the 3M product tip !
Ive have a whole inside of a 964 that needs to be clean out of glue etc..tried alot off stuff but will try this one. It was still listed on 3M sales outlet in Europe.
Funny to read Safety Kleen, I used to be working with products that was sold to "Safety Kleen" our biggest customer ..like 85% of production went to the States.

Sorry for the hijack Justin.
So when can we come and have a ride in your Junkyard Carrera?
Looking forward to a new year of Intressting treads & tips
/JOP

[Jbrooks]

I just googled. 3m 08984 adhesive cleaner. Tons available a little speedy but out there