'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[Don C]

John,
A heads up on the RD front seat mounts. The sliding nut on the RD mount is 90 degrees out from original. I thought it would be OK so I welded them in then found out I didn't have enough adjustment in the seat rail to allow the seat to slide back and forth.




The parallel sides of the mount are parallel with the centerline of the car.

[John Pierce]

Thank you Bruce for the advice and pictures about the Karmann floor pan holes/plugs. Also, a thank you to Tom Perazzo who I talked to offline and was very helpful. Even though my car came from Karmann Karosserie it's lacking much originality. I'm trying to restore it as close to original as possible, which may seem a bit obsessive compulsive at times, but researching these details is actually fun There's nothing on the R forum about the floor pan details and the only information I could find is what Tom and Bruce have previously posted here on ABCGT. Tom redid his pans and made the top and bottom portions look OEM and they look fabulous. Bruce made a good point: no one will see the cockpit side of the floor pans as the Karmann plugs will be covered in sealer, sound deadener, carpets and mats. My thought is to make the bottom of the pan look original, but leave out the top-side details.



Lots of little things to get the car ready for the pan installation. Plug holes in the tunnel and pedal board support floor flanges.



I stripped the Simonsen primer off the rear pan to get it ready for welding and it's also not epoxy based. I also marked the centerline for mockup and also marked the locations for the Karmann floor plugs.



Bruce's picture of an OEM floor plug shows the bottom center to have a shoulder and concavity when viewed from the cockpit.



Scrounging around Home Depot and the web I found these electrical box knockout plugs and they are the perfect size, a little larger than 2" (50mm). The only problem is the shoulder and concavity face the wrong way.



The bottom side of the knockout plug is the side that looks similar to the Karmann plugs.



I bent the tabs off knockout plug and was hoping to bend the lip to the other side to give a perfect copy of the Karmann plug, but the metal became hardened and cracked off. It looks very similar to the OEM Karmann plug though.



I'm thinking about not cutting a hole in the floor pan, but just rosette welding the disk in place. When installed on the floor pan no one will be the wiser, unless they want to dig deep into the cockpit after everything is installed. One nagging O/C detail though: if you look closely at the OEM floor pans posted by JOP and Phil: the floor holes/plugs are not centered in the stampings. The ones in the front pan are medial to center and the ones in the rear pan are lateral to center. Ugh!! I think no one would probably care about this level of detail!!

I ordered the front pan from Stoddard this AM, which should be here in a couple of days. Once the front pan is fitted I can get the correct location of the rear pan. I'm going to install new center tunnel brake and fuel lines before welding the floor pans in place.

Don: Thanks for the heads up about the seat mounts. I wonder if it's better to have lateral movement of the caged nut or front to back movement. It looks like the front mount that Phil purchased from EASY has the orientation similar to the one from RD. Phil: was yours OEM?


Thanks for following.

[JOP]

John, that sounds like a good idea to use the homedepo to replikate the Karmann plugg.
It is amazing that we after 68 years since start of the 356 and still doesnt have a 100 % replica of spareparts to buy from our 356 vendours.
Keep Welding her together.
/ JOP

[JTR70]

John, Nice work finding that plug! Just my 2 cents of course but you've come so far to get the details correct that it would be almost a crime not go for that last yard and drill or punch in the hole for those plugs.
Just my OCD talking, it'll be nice either way I have no doubts.
Justin

[bbspdstr]

John, creating the actual holes would be the "original" way to go, but important only if you want them that way. After the reason for that detail (which I have never heard about definitively), those were sealed by Karmann ...I'd assume due to no foreseen future use. It becomes then just a visual cue, a "nice touch" if the chassis number starts with a 2. A way to be 'most Karmann' for those who kneel down to look underneath and a way to most look like and fool some that "this 356 is 'all original'....trust me."

It's important to know (if I'm reading your words correctly) that the picture of the original plug in a chunk of original floor which you include above is what the plug looks like from underneath, like turn the picture upside down, the depression and crimped perimeter ring is facing UP, thus holding moisture and eventually creating rust. what appears to be a "flat disc" is what is seen below the floor. I'm sorry, I should have marked "up" and "down" before I shot the pictures.

If you are going to NOT cut holes in the pan, pick your alignment and just solder discs where they would be if "original". If you actually make the holes, do as Tom (and likely other O/C people) did/have done, me included.

Also important is that the original captive nuts for the seat riser mounts gave the most adjustment laterally, so the repro could be turned that way and work better if the hole was oval, as this original:



For reference, the slice of metal still attached to the 'pod' is the ledge of the inner longitudinal.

It's also important to remember (another nudge yet again) that the seat tracks on the tunnel must be matched by the outer tracks on their risers, so the best way to achieve this is with a seat pan with the upper tracks on it mocking up where the outer must be when all is centered. Only then should a Tek-screw or tack weld be used so a sliding test can be made to 'proof' the alignment in width and height of the outer mounting. Both inner and outer tracks must be "in phase" which is the same angularity to each other.....or the seat will bind on adjustment.

-Bruce

[John Pierce]

You guys are too funny and made my Porsche OCD kick in! After sleeping on it I decided to use the Perazzo technique to make the Karmann floor plugs. And I'm glad I did as they came out great. Thanks for the prodding



The first was to make the 50 mm floor pan holes with an hydraulic knockout punch.



Such crisp edges! Can't be beat.



Next was to make 60 mm disks out of 16 gauge steel and round the edges. This is to mimic the OEM turned edge that originally fit up into the floor pan hole. The 16 gauge is double the thickness of the OEM plug that was probably made from ~22 gauge steel.



Next was to make the cockpit side of the folded flange out of 20 gauge steel. The inner hole is 50 mm to match the floor pan hole.



Then mark a ring 8 mm larger.



Looking pretty good.



Welded in place as seen from the cockpit side.



Close up.



OEM plug seen from the cockpit side with the turned edge.



From the bottom looks pretty OEM!



My Stoddard front pan is to arrive tomorrow and I'll do the same there.

Thanks for following.

[DG58INNM]

Oh, makes me ever so thankful I have a Reutter car

But John, you are a clever son-of-a-gun.

DG

[213532]

Regarding the pan plugs, I had one in the back seat area that was rusted out. There is a guy replicating them. He sells them in The Samba for, I believe, $80 for a pair.

[John Pierce]

Hi 213532! Yup....that's Tom Perazzo who made an extra 2 sets of seat pan plugs. I've got a set, but haven't got around to installing them. Maybe soon..... Tom's seat pans turned out very nicely and it is his design for the floor pan plugs too.

[bbspdstr]

For total OEM, pre-rust that area. For that process, see "checking for leaks" in Made by Hand.

Very good. I hope RD is watching this thread, as I had suggested long ago to Mike that a Karmann version of their floor could be sold for at least $100 more than a Reutter or "one size fits all." I thought I was speaking clearly, but perhaps my Canadian is not good enough.....eh.

One thing I would do differently....nah, never mind....

I did not check the diameter of the rear seat plugs. Is that relevent for you? I should look in my box of such notes as I remember drawing (sketching) the K floor with location measurements and disc sizes years ago....when we began to realize that these details were becoming important (at least to SOME people.....)

Obsessive compulsive huh? How much are you billing yourself for that added detail?

-Bruce
Mike, good plug for the plug person on the Samba. I'll need to check that out. (Edit again: I type slowly and the added info was added before I could post!)

[John Pierce]

I like your sense of humor, Bruce! Now I'm going to have to install my Perazzo seat pan plugs tomorrow

The funny thing is that once you know what the floor pan plugs look like they're very simple to make. It's that first step of cutting holes into a pristine new floor pan that kills ya!

[tperazzo]

Hey my ears are burnin'. Ha ha.

I did make a few extra of the fake karmann seat plugs that I installed on my car.

A few fellow OCD buyers are out there, but they aren't a big seller for sure. No offense ,JP I love your work and attention to detail!

The main reason I think they don't fly off shelves is they get covered in tar paper and undercoating!

In my opinion the value and fun is the documenting the build process. When my car is finished, I will smile each time I see those old photographs and sleep better knowing that the next guy will be confused if those plugs are original or not.

People tell me all the time I'm sick and to hurry up a finish that piece of junk.
Cheers,
Tom

[JTR70]

Great job on those plugs John! Love that pneumatic hole puncher too! Another tool for the wish list. Agree, Bruce is always good for a laugh!

People tell me all the time I'm sick and to hurry up a finish that piece of junk.
"people" Tom? That's code for the wife right?

Justin

[Jonesy_356]

Funny, I get the same - and I'm no where near you guys for OCD levels of attention to detail. Well done, John, you've raised the bar again!

Jonesy

[Phil Planck]

John
Don't know whether to think you've gone off the deep end or are just doing one great job of replicating originality. I pick the 2nd. Great job, and a great resource for those seeking absolute correctness.

Phil