'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[John Pierce]

Totally agree. The look of the Porsche 356 is classic and doesn't go out of style. If people have a replica they should be welcomed by the "R" members. The "R" magazine is the best part of being a member at this point as the Forum is not very welcoming. I hope more and more people find out about the ABCGT Forum and see how good it is.

Back to cars: Since I've now got a plan to move forward with the floors I've been going through the install process in my head and reading up on it. Before I install the pans I'm thinking it would a great time to prime underneath and behind the dash since I can easily reach up in there with the car on its side. Any recommendation about top coating it with flat black at this point before the primer has dried completely? Also, is the underside here painted the same as the earlier cars as shown in Justin's picture below?

Thanks and Happy Easter.

John

[bbspdstr]

I may not be the one to speak with authority about the "blackening" of the under-dash, but be sure that the warm air outlets get blackened before carpet and the slide are installed.

There is a guy local to me that is always on the R-site. He took me to task in the early part of the last decade because I had painted the inside of his Speedster all black for protection of the merely lightly primered shell with overspray here and there inside. Therefore, since most of that blackening was covered in carpet and the rest belonged there, I was an idiot. He had the bodywork done in one shop, the paint in another and I was to assemble from nasty boxes of crap...and I could go on but it's not the issue here.

I did an original-owner-Factory-delivered Speedster in the '90s in which I was the very first to take it apart. Some interested persons contacted me (most from CA) for how Porsche did that blackening process, like there was a stencil or pattern......and no, there was not. Each 356 I have seen has been uniquely blackened.

Another part of this is that some appeared to have been sprayed, some have been brushed....but all have anticipated where the carpet or other subsequent pieces would be installed and gone just enough to cover color overspray with black paint.

The 'sheen' is like engine tin. Not quite gloss but not flat black either. A 'satin' is more like it, but it varied in all models that I've seen. ("low bid" as in many things in a start-up company)

The factory enamel primer, usually gray, got to many areas better than the top coat color. I have seen many undersides of dash/cowl areas still somewhat bare metal, most by now with some surface rust at least.

That has been a problem during a good restoration with "show cars" actually being all primed in gray over a rattle-can texture coat to where the average original primer would have faded out and left a dry-spray pilling.

The most important thing about the underside of the typical 356 dash was that not much black was done past the Factory's criterion of "sight line" or "line of sight" coverage. That was the focus even on black-brushed fenderwells, rockers, etc.

Oh, don't forget the areas around the seat mounts either.....hell, just paint everything black that is not the exterior color.......
That's not "original" but it's more protection for the metal....and around the roof areas that the headliner touches or comes close to, the holes will appear a uniform black. (The white muslin Porsche used a an adhesion-promoting gluing layer takes that away and I always have thought that was an obvious lack of uniformity...in an OC kind of way.)(And who am I to 'over-restore'?)

Hope this helps,
Bruce

[John Pierce]

Getting things ready for the floor pan installation. Lots of little details that are better to resolve now as access is so much easier without the pans in place.

I've been following Justin's Celette jig thread with interest so I thought I'd measure everything again to make sure nothing had move.



Measuring from the lower rear stand off as from the Porsche chassis dimension diagram.



And the front.



Both the front and rear torsion bars are dead even and the measurements from side-to-side are spot on. Also, the difference between the front and rear chassis measurements is exactly where it should be as provided by Porsche. Dropping plumb bobs from each corner also shows the cross diagonal measurements to be great. I'm so happy none of the measurements changed with all the unibody repairs that I did. The rotisserie is connected to the tranny mounts and to the lower right torsion bar and it held everything nicely in position. I think replacing the metal in sections allowed the car to keep its torsional rigidity.

Next on the prep work parade prior to floor pan installation was getting the tunnel ready. I had previously repaired the sides and flange and primed/painted the inside, but hadn't cleaned out all the tubing. And I'm very glad I did so.



Pushing rods with gas soaked rags through all the tubing.



I also let petrol sit in the tubing to dissolve the harder material.



This is just some of the caked old grease that was in there. Some of the tubing was totally blocked with 54 years of dirt and grease.



I painted the inside of each upper outer tunnel channel. Gotta stop that rust!



Next was metal prep prior to priming. Lots of nooks and crannies....and knuckle bruises.


It's nice to step back and see where this all started



Front right patchwork.



Front left even worse.



Tunnel badness.

Yahoo!! It's been a fun journey to get to the point where the floors can go in. As you hear a seller say: "It's an easy repair. It just needs the longitudinals and floors!!" Yeah, right.

Thanks for following.

[roy mawbey]

John,

You are doing some nice work here.Nice to see the progress you are making. Bruce's comments about paint under the dash are interesting. I know the underneath of mine is still factory never touched. What is surprising is the actual standard of finish. It seem's to me the Meissen blue top coat was very quickly sprayed over the black paint with no real attention to detail often leaving overspray onto area's of black. Like a misting of black when no masking took place.The black like Bruce says a sort of satin finish is actually very thin in places

If it were done like this today on a top quality restoration I am sure the customer would raise his eyebrows somewhat if he looked under the dash.
I bet today they mask!!

A few of my photo's.










Roy

[John Pierce]

I'm in need of some advice regarding the correct floors for my 1963 B T-6. I initially purchased floor pans from RD, but the rear pan was way wrong so I returned them and bought floor pans from Simonsen. I'm almost ready to start fitting the pans, but I thought I'd compare the stampings between manufacturers and now I'm not sure what is correct. Below are comparison pictures to what is being sold. Since my car is a B T-6 the center of the rear floor pan is concave on the B and C cars to accommodate the shifter.


Rear floor pan:
The Simonsen rear panel is well made but the concavity is a bit different from the ones sold by Stoddard/Sierra Madre.



Simonsen front and rear panels sold for a B T-6.



The Stoddard rear pan for a B/C is similar to the Simonsen, but the rearmost concavity has a lip while the Simonsen doesn't. Which version is correct?



Just for completeness in comparisons: The RD rear pan concavity for the B/C isn't even close to being correct, that's why I returned it.



Front floor Pan:
For the front pans there are differences in the midline embossments between the Simonsen, Stoddard and RD pans. In addition, both the Stoddard and RD panels have 3 round embossments on either side while the Simonsen doesn't have these.



Simonsen front pan without the 3 round embossments on either side. The 2 midline embossments are similar to the one made by RD.



Stoddard front pan as sold for ALL 356's with 3 round embossments on either side. The midline embossments are wider than those made by Simonsen and RD.



RD front pan sold for B T-6 and C's. The embossments appear crisp with 3 round embossments on either side, like Stoddard; and the midline embossments are similar to those of Simonsen.



This is the RD front pan sold for A and B T-5 cars, which appears exactly the same as the one sold by Simonsen for the B T-6.


Do the experts have any thoughts on what embossments are correct for a B T-6? I know this is kind of picky, but since I've come this far restoring the car correctly, I might as well find the correct pans for the car (We won't talk about the 4 round Karmann drainage holes also in the pans as Tom covered those nicely in his build.)

Thanks for the help.

JP

[Phil Planck]

Good question John. A good reason to save old, removed metal, or at least take pictures. I did neither. My sample size of one experience is with the Stoddard pans. All I remember is that the fit at the rear was good and I don't think required rework in that concave area. I Googled in 356 Porsche undercarriages and found one pic of an unmolested T6 C pan, but it's hard to tell.

Here is my pan welded in at the concave area(thank God for MIG welders)



Here is the original pan on the C:



Phil

[JOP]

Look at below picture found on www.
It is a untouched T6 floor and you will see the diff in stamping
So actually non are doing it 100% correct.....
Also IF you did have a 356 between the model changes Porsche would use the inhouse shelf part at hand to finish off the product to be sold if they would run out of the correct part....the production line must continue


In the below one you see TK Simonsen rear pan onto a T6 and you kind a miss the extra "lip" but that is easy to DIY

I do hope this gives you some hints

/JOP

[tperazzo]

Hey John,
I too tried to make my floors look original. My original pans looked a lot like the ones JOP just posted. The stamping was much softer or less crisp than the simonsen pans.

Take a look at my thread around post 24490 where I re-radiused and softened the impressions some. I used Stoddard pans and modified them the best I could.

I got strange looks as you would imagine when people saw me on the beach pounding down the large transverse hump. As it turns out moist beach sand works great when reworking Porsche floor pans.

If you need more pics, just let me know. Also don't forget there are more dimpled holes in the rear pan near the shift coupler.

Tom

[John Pierce]

Great information guys and thank you.

The Simonsen rear pan seems to be the best manufactured for the B and C cars. The Stoddard pan stampings are not as crisp and the RD pan has no concavity. I've put the correct Karmann drainage holes in the outer rear frames, front reinforcement panels and outer longitudinals so I'll definitely place them in the rear tunnel portion of the pan. Thanks for reminding me Tom!

JOP, thanks for finding that OEM Karmann floor pan picture. It's quite helpful determining which manufacturer makes the most accurate pans. The Stoddard front pan has the correct 3 stampings in a triangular pattern; the width of the 2 midline stampings is correct and wider than the earlier 356 A and B T-5 cars; and the 2 front stampings are correct in diameter and depth of the shoulder. The front pan sold by Simonsen as being for a 356 B T-6/C is only correct for a 356 A/B T-5 as the stampings are wrong. The one produced by RD for a 356 B T-6/C is a mixture of 356 A/B T-5 and later B T-6/C stampings so is wrong. The RD pan looks correct for the B T-6/C but the midline stampings are those of the 356 A/B T-5.



OEM Karmann B T-6/C floor pans.



Stoddard front pan correct only for B T-6/C though it is billed as being for ALL 356's.



RD front pan incorrect for B T-6/C as the 2 midline stampings are too narrow and the front one is rounded incorrectly.


Bottom line: The best and correct floor pans for a B T-6/C are a Simonsen rear pan and a Stoddard front pan. The best and correct floor pans for a B T-5 are a Simonsen rear pan and either a Simonsen or a RD front pan. I hope this can help others that are looking for the correct pans for their cars.

JP

[ukinusa]

delete as duplicate

[ukinusa]

Just for completeness on floor discussion ... I just received my floors panels from ZIMS of the Simonsen floors for my early 57 A coupe. I will post them on my blog too ..but in case others stumble here first ! They look great but haven't had time to closely match to originals but in out prior discussions Simonsen seemed the best way forward...for early A's

[bbspdstr]

For more input on floors let me say that I try to re-use the seat "pods" from the original, but be aware that some reproduction rear floors have a more shallow draw (stamping) where those rearward "pods" mount to the outer perimeter and will be therefore tilted.

Check the repro (thinner) seat riser mounts as well. (ROUND front mounts for a T-6...really?) If not taken care of now, modification and/or shimming will be needed to have the seats slide smoothly when their time comes during assembly.

I'd recommend measuring well and then merely tacking those pods in with all other seat rails in place, see if they actually slide! Better to know now. The 'digital protractor' really comes in handy here.

Check the underside of the seats, as I have been seeing more cracks in pans and bent rails as time marches on. "Assume NOTHING."

-Bruce

[John Pierce]

Thanks for the heads-up, Bruce. I went to my storage area to double check what seat mounts I had previously purchased. I got mine from RD and they look well made. I'm getting things ready for the floor pan installation so I'm glad I'm checking these things now. Have you had any issue with the RD mounts?

My digital protractor just came in the mail so I can put it to good use.


Front B T-6/C mounts.



Rear B T-6/C mounts.

Cheers,

JP

[Phil Planck]

My Stoddard pans(15 years ago) came with thin front seat mounts with a different shape. I had long discarded my originals so got a pair from EASY that were much thicker. You can see the difference:




Here is the original from EASY installed:




Rear mounts from Stoddard were okay:

[bbspdstr]

Per John's request, here is an original Karmann floor plug sample blasted to show detail and cleaned of residual tar.... and the green original primer was under the part of the floor from which this was cut:









It is very frustrating when a floor gets so porous here and there and yet some of it is so pristine.....but the most economical way to resolve this is a whole floor replacement.
-Bruce