Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[roy mawbey]

Bruce,


Don't worry I am the same as you at recalling things after some time has passed. I can say like you, pictures tell a thousand words and in Justin's case just how many photo's has he posted? with so many so interesting to look at.

Just think back to the 1960's and starting to do this work, you must have been through all this effort possibly taking like me a few photos as you attempted things but the effort to have them all developed let alone writing text to explain was possibly like mine pretty poor in relation to efforts these days.

I well remember taking apart my Norton 500cc engine in 1962. A friend of mine came along with his camera and he took a series of photos as we progressed. I had some large paper envelopes to put parts in for the day they would be re-assembled.

That occurred nearly ONE YEAR later and he had the film developed for me. Not one of the photo's was clear enough to see most were just black. The paper envelopes kept over that time in my dads rather damp London garage all fell apart when lifted dropping contents all over the floor!

Took me many extra months to rebuild the bike which I did as per the photo below. So these great photo's of Justin's are worth so much to guys on the road to success with their 356 resto's



Roy

[JTR70]

It is very cheap and easy to rig up for sure. Thanks Per!

Roy, the abundance of progress photos here is simply the fruits of the digital age. The photos are free to produce where as before there was the expense of film, developing and the set number of exposures per roll. Then too the extra time and effort to drop off and pick up. We had to be a bit more selective of what we shot right? Now its free, limitless and instant. Its a double edge sword for sure as with the ease of digital photos you've got people taking photos of their dinner on a regular basis as if anyone really cared.

Hey Bruce, I was hoping for a little feedback on the fender openings. What sort of variance if any have you noticed from side to side on OG cars you've worked on though the years?
Thanks again you guys! Justin
5/17/16
Dialing in leading edge fitment. As with other side I'm continuing the line and profile off the door and working my way back.

Having difficulty getting the top corner to slip down even with the top of the door. I marked where this shoulder was interfering then remembered I had not finished converting this new coupe striker to a speedster version profile.

I'll add the outer flange section back on a bit later.

For now I had to flatten that shoulder to a sweeping arch and get rid of the dog-legged coupe profile which was now directly interfering with fitment.

Arch continues now after a little torch heat and some hammering

Now slipped level with the back of the door.

Corner and a few vertical inches down match up nicely. It was a start.

Time to lock in this portion with a screw.

With that initial setting the top frame was remounted to assess the rest of the fender's early fitment.

Pretty much a repeat of the left side with edge profile high and encroaching into the base bow.

Like the left side too the curve is also cutting too quick.

It will have to be relief cut and relaxed too.

Now I could get that edge to line up beautifully by swinging the back of the fender wide but in doing so I completely lose the decklid opening and the rear corner of the fender well is way wider than the other side. Personally I like that, especially for running wider wheels but its not stock. All this info however just confirmed for me that it is the top opening flange that needs to be relaxed.

Its beginning to settle in where it needs to be.

Quick overview shot.

Its really nice to be getting more of the frame and substructure covered over.
Fitting continues. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[Phil Planck]

Justin
I have not been on the forum for a while, but just reading the email text of our various projects. All I can say is that I am glad you are doing this and not me. As Bruce stated, would be great to convert your thread into a book somehow, someday. We are all learning from your posts, so a big thanks. You are making some great progress.

Phil

[JTR70]

Thanks a lot Phil, I really appreciate that! I don't know about an actual book but maybe a comic book in volumes might be more appropriate. Thanks again Sir! Justin

5/21/16
Begin right fender nip and tuck.

Started with relief trimming at the lid opening to begin making this corner happen. Aside from the trough profile the skin elevation with the closed lid is too high on the fender and also a bit low on the cowl side. Will eventually make these two meet in the middle to match the lid.

Left the lid opening for now and committed to the needed relief cut for the top opening.

It was now free to overlap and swung wider into position.


Mating flanges now within striking distance.

Leading edge profile was falling into place as it continued the cowl profile. Next was to remount the top frame to check for proper clearance and distance with the base bow.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

5/22/16

top frame remounted to test for spacing and shape contour between the two.

Could not be happier with the profile match but the top of the fender is a touch high and will need to come down a bit. The corner of the cowl will need to be cut and relieved downward.

The top of the fender was bottomed out against the flange so all had to be removed(again) so I could trim a few mm's more off the edge for additional clearance.

Once trimmed the fender and top frame where re-remounted again. Spacing from base bow matches the rest of the car well enough.

ready to synch these two together with a few screws and begin establishing the final position.

With the fender now lowered and into the sweet spot the deviation in the cowls corner profile is really pronounced. Nothing a little more cutting and relieving won't fix.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[JTR70]

5/23/16
Right quarter relief cutting continues.

relief cut the corner at the lid opening to allow this corner to come up a bit.

Corner now a lot more even with the closed lid.

Relief cut the forward cowl opening to allow this corner to come down. A little torch heat and this lip will be heeled over at a lower angle.


Comfortable with the fender caps new position it was pinned in place and will cut the overlap excess off next.

Corner where these two panels meet is slowly taking shape.

Rough jigsaw pieces beginning to fall into place.

Moved downward and relief cut the leading edge. You get an idea here of the pie-section that will be required.

The only bright spot through all this cutting was that the wired edges almost intersect perfectly...Almost.

Apprehensive and always scary to cut on new panel skins but the relief comes once signs of the fitment I'm after begins to show. A long way yet to go of course.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

5/24/16
From a few days ago...
Rear end off the hoist and back on the stand.

Now that the right fender is getting close to its final position I wanted to test fit the tail again.

first thing was trying to reestablish my best average gap with the lid and the stepped flanges for the opening in the fenders.

Still crude overlapping jigsaw still but ever so slowly refining the shape and fit with each session.

More tail fitment next.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

BTW: Rusty Tubs comes through for me once again!

He just took delivery of my "newused" Cellette bench which doubled as a gurney to deliver another dead one to his location.

Working on getting it out to me next. After that, I'll have to have a set of fixtures made. The fun continues...

[JTR70]

5/26/16
Tail fitment continued with first potential issue with fender.

Best overall gap getting close with a few variances still here and there.

The lateral gap on this side swing a bit wide. Will decide what to do if anything as this fender is installed permanently.

paint stick width gap established at the bottom. Pretty happy with the overall shape and fit back here so far.

The tail is just about there and the joint transition from fender to tail seems well within striking distance.

However its a different story on the left side. First potential fitment issue. With All else lined up and set pretty well it is this side of the tail that is sweeping out just a bit too far.

If I squeeze them together the panels curl in completely losing the line. So, I began studying and exploring options.

One thought might be to cut it down the middle again tighten up the panel but in doing so I'd lose my gaps at the deck lid so probably not.

This fender also seems to taper too quickly at the end so I might open it up but looking at it from this shot the corner of this tail just seems to swing a little too wide so I still might be narrowing this panel? I'll have to take some measurements off my coupe first. Anyway enough for now, I'll really hit it hard once the right fender is on for good. I at least have a clue of what lies ahead installing this cap.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[tperazzo]

Hey Justin,
Have you tried holding a rear bumper up to see if that provide another reference as to whether the rear clip is too wide or narrow? We just learned that bumpers aren't the most accurate things, but it might be a another data point. Jack just posted a great thought about using the fender brace hardware to influence the position of the lower rear fenders. Good stuff but it might not apply to an A.

Great purchase on the cellete bench by the way. You can't call yourself an amateur anymore!
We all know you will make it work one way or another.
Tom

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, with all the work being done on the rear of the car, I'm more than a little concerned about the clearances of the wheel/tire to the fender opening when the transaxle is installed. It may not be well known, but most original cars seem to have smaller clearance between the tire and the fender on the right side, than the left side. Appox 1 in only 20 have tighter clearance on the left side, with 1 in 40 cars being pretty equal, in my experience. Not very noticeable, but easily seen when taking measurements. This can become a problem when custom/wider wheels/tires are being fitted, and even when stock steel wheels are used in the rear with Carrera spacers (1"?) & long studs are in place. These spacers/studs are commonly used in conjunction with 60mm front brakes. It's interesting to note that the factory alloy/steel rims have a special offset, moving the barrels more inboard, perhaps to allow use of snow chains when required. In fact, we chose to shave the spacers by about 5mm on a 1960 Super 90 GT clone that was fitted with current Goodyear Eagle bias ply vintage racing tires to allow clearance on one side on a finished car. If anyone thinks that we chose too wide of a tire, an identical spare tire/wheel fit in the trunk, allowing the hood to close without issues.
This whole offset clearance issue has surfaced many times at my shop, most recently when we were called upon to fit 5 1/2" McAffee wheels with modest sized 185/70 Vredestein tires to a "C" car, a popular modification in the day. The left side fit with almost 1/4" clearance, so no problem, but on the "tight right", we had to roll the the fender nearly 3/8" at the trailing edge to allow two credit card thickness to pass through (some relief can be had by adjusting the fender brace link as mentioned on Tom P's link).This was done on a mostly original car, after proper machining was done on the wheels for 356 fittment. Other episodes include deep 6" Fuchs with 195/60 tires and multiple PreA rims widened to 5.5 with 195/55 tires. Always issues on right side, and always on complete finished cars, at least for me.
I would suggest fitting the spring plates, transaxle, brake drums, and wheels, to take an accurate measurement. Fun, huh? Like I am wont to tell Trevor (Kerry never complains) "I don't care how hard you have to work!"

[JTR70]

Thanks Tom! I did hold one of my bumpers up to it but it really didn't reveal anything either way. In fact it looked sort of good but all I could do was hold it there and could not back away for a better vantage point. A bumpers float at the corners and are not bolted in like B& C's so there is a lot wiggle room. Yeah, I'll fool a lot of guys into thinking I know what I'm doing with that new frame table.

Thank you Jack! Actually, I was made aware of that many years ago by my restorer friend here in town. He said he always found the right side to be tighter or narrower on just about all ABC cars he had worked on. An interesting ratio you give BTW.

The reason we got to talking about that was I experienced the exact problem with my coupe after my first go around in '88. We of course paid no attention to it but once I mounted my 5.5 fuchs on it I had a good 1/2 inch more clearance or crown than I had on the right. That mistake bothered me a great deal. It was probably wider anyway but it was also hit and pulled out too far compounding the problem.

Fast forward to my last attempt. Once I set the right side I pulled the corner out as far as it would go. Tire clearance is of course key but the biggest pet peeve I have is various finished cars with this corner tight, flat and sort of sucked under right at the wheel arch. compound that with a super skinny tire and wheel combo and it looks like total crap to me. I Personally like the corners where I have this one set. Then with the right stance and an offset that puts just a touch of the tire peaking out past the Lower corner of the arch. Nothing sweeter looking IMHO.

So once I replaced this fender it was set to the right side in its maxed out position. My point in sharing all of this is that my base measurements from fender lip to frame are my "outer limits" for this project since I have set my coupes fenders to the maxed out "stock" side.

So right now I have these fenders (from lip to frame) initially pinned about a 1/4 inch shy of the readings I'm getting from my coupe.

If I bring that fender out to meet this tail it will be way wide and out of spec. I'll also lose the taper/teardrop shape. I do like your suggestion of mocking up a trans/suspension with tire and wheel though. It would go a long way to both confirm and answer my questions about where the give and take needs to take place. I'll do it and of course report back what I find. Thanks for the suggestion Jack!
Thanks again for all the input and suggestions guys!
Justin

[bbspdstr]

I had a 'captive audience" in an elevator at PCA event many years ago with Fred Schwartz (then president of PCNA), Chuck Stoddard, an engineer from Porsche and another big-wig whose name I forget.

I asked about why Porsches from 356s through the then-new 900-series cars always seemed to be "dressed to the left"....meaning the bodies were to the left and the suspensions to the right, making clearances unequal on MOST, but not all, of their vechicles. Lots of shrugging and palms-up and promises to "check on (that)" but never any follow-up...even though I passed out business cards to each as they exited at any floor as soon as they could, even if it was not where their rooms were......

I really expected something from Chuck, the MIT engineering grad, but I guess they all thought I was a kook and looked forward more to more sales and more drinking while celebrating their brand.

So, do 'we' try to make completely centered old Porsches or just eyeball things to be "close enough." If Porsche didn't care, why should we....and aberrations can be deemed "original."

More later on Celette stuff....Justin, I'll send an email about fixtures.

-Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

[quote="bbspdstr" post=33818]I had a 'captive audience" in an elevator at PCA event many years ago with Fred Schwartz (then president of PCNA), Chuck Stoddard, an engineer from Porsche and another big-wig whose name I forget.

I asked about why Porsches from 356s through the then-new 900-series cars always seemed to be "dressed to the left"....meaning the bodies were to the left and the suspensions to the right, making clearances unequal on MOST, but not all, of their vechicles. Lots of shrugging and palms-up and promises to "check on (that)" but never any follow-up...even though I passed out business cards to each as they exited at any floor as soon as they could, even if it was not where their rooms were......
-Bruce[/quote
Bruce (The Kook), maybe they all needed to take a collective fart after your questions, and graciously spared you the experience in the elevator, sparing your life. As we all know, higher ups in the Porsche food chain never do anything that isn't well thought out, like T5 trans single mount, or early 915 trans mainshaft seals. After all, "Excellence Was Expected".
Jack (analog man from the stone age)

[JTR70]

So, do 'we' try to make completely centered old Porsches or just eyeball things to be "close enough." If Porsche didn't care, why should we....and aberrations can be deemed "original."

Bruce, I liked what you also wrote a while back about "shooting for original specs but not to get too caught up in it. In the end if it looks good then it probably is good." I think that is a much more realistic approach that will keep you sane along the way. Thanks again for the help with the fixtures!

5/28/16

Following Jack's advice I spent this afternoon mocking up a transaxle and suspension.

Began on the left side

Stock 4.5 wheel with an ancient Michelin XZX 165 series tire.

More than ample clearance room in the upper corner.

Lower corner doesn't actually tuck back that far but is an illusion given by this vantage point.

You can see here that back cornered edge sits well outside of the tire.

Again more than enough room for stock wheels. One thing I did figure out for sure is that it is wide enough so I will not be swinging it out more to line up with the tail panel. It will have to give some place else to correct that.

Next up was a much wider 60 series tire. The skinny one I just fitted measured approx. 6 inches across while this wider one came in at about 7 3/4 inches at the side walls. Will post that test here shortly.
Justin

[JTR70]

5/28/16
fat boy tire up next.

Stock offset 4.5 inch wheel

Ample room for this tire as well.

I don't know how wide this tire is as all it says is "60-C" but as you can tell by the side wall they are way too wide for this rim and are more suited for 5.5 or 6 inch wide wheels.

This fender is officially my base line. I see no foreseeable problems fitting 5.5 mangles and or GT spacers if ever desired. I certainly don't want to take it wider to align with the tail skin.

So the correction for that issue will have to made elsewhere.


I do like the looks of this fatter, lower profile tire over that skinny Michelin on the first go. I'll post what I found out about the right fender tomorrow. Thanks for looking! Justin

BTW this is how old these tires are: These date correct wheels are Original to my coupe and those tires we ran on it way back in 1979...