Polo motor build for junkyard coupe 58367

[Jack Staggs]

I am no expert for sure, but I would think the most compelling reason for EFI would be that it starts every time and doesn't require the services of a mechanic nearly as often. I have always said I would love to have an old Porsche the starred and ran as well as my Toyota Land Cruiser. Dream?

Well, one benefit of fi is that it does not rely on vacuum for fuel delivery, unlike a carb, but fi has it's own problems. That being said, carbs can be a very efficient, trouble free system. Remember though, many of our cars have 50+ year old carbs on them. Fi will certainly have issues over that time frame. Most cars that come through our shop each year require no service at all to the carbs. In fact, we get reports from folks that live a great distance away that tell us their carbs are still working perfectly years after we serviced and adjusted them. They instruct their local mechanic not to touch them. If you need to be constantly fiddling with them, something is not right. IIRC, 66 Land Cruiser is carburated, no?
BTW, Ron LaDow says that more than 80% of carb problems are actually somewhere else.

[merbesfield]

I am no expert for sure, but I would think the most compelling reason for EFI would be that it starts every time and doesn't require the services of a mechanic nearly as often. I have always said I would love to have an old Porsche the starred and ran as well as my Toyota Land Cruiser. Dream?

Well, one benefit of fi is that it does not rely on vacuum for fuel delivery, unlike a carb, but fi has it's own problems. That being said, carbs can be a very efficient, trouble free system. Remember though, many of our cars have 50+ year old carbs on them. Fi will certainly have issues over that time frame. Most cars that come through our shop each year require no service at all to the carbs. In fact, we get reports from folks that live a great distance away that tell us their carbs are still working perfectly years after we serviced and adjusted them. They instruct their local mechanic not to touch them. If you need to be constantly fiddling with them, something is not right. IIRC, 66 Land Cruiser is carburated, no?
BTW, Ron LaDow says that more than 80% of carb problems are actually somewhere else.

I was referring to my 2007 Land Cruiser. My 66 is still in restoration hell, LOL. But I do have a 1982 TLC w a carb. It runs ok, but still nothing like the modern fuel injection. But I do agree that 100 years from now carbs will be repairable so to speak and FI will be a PIA to anyone trying to restore them. But as stated, I'm no mechanic. I just like to drive them, not work on them. Unrealistic, yes!

[JTR70]

12/3/15
Finally moving again on this engine.

At long last Bill was finally able to fit me in this week to begin machining the case to accept that 4-cam fan housing.

Spent about an hour on our initial consult so he could begin getting his head around on just what he will be machining off.

Bill's mapping it out with notations here. We'll talk again before he actually begins cutting anything off just to be sure we're on the same page. I'll hopefully have something to report in the next week. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[merbesfield]

Scary!

[JTR70]

2/24/16
A few months behind but Bill was finally able to fit me in to begin milling down the 911 fan saddle.

Getting the first case half chalked up here.

Hopefully by the end of this week he'll have the preliminary milling done.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

2/25/16


Stopped by Bill's yesterday and as you can see he's change his approach since the day before. He didn't think his mill was going to be throaty enough to handle the block as one piece but as you can see he figured out that it could.

As he was explaining all he had to do to modify the holding fixtures I could easily see most of the expense going into the set up time versus the actual milling itself. Par for the course as its gotta be right.

As I walked in in he was turning an alloy plug on his lathe which will insert into the front crank hole and will have cross section milled out of it at center to give him the reference point for the deck height I need. Anyway he should be in process of actual block milling today.(26th) Thanks for looking! Justin

[Tony G]

I know it is scary, but based on our last conversation right in front of the case, you definitely knew what needed to be done. I can't wait to see the progress with this engine as well as the car too! Keep us posted.

[Tony G]

BTW, we need to discuss the exhaust system.

[JTR70]

Thank you Tony! Definitely, I need to catch up with you on this build.
Thanks again, Justin
2/26/16

Walked in on Bill just finishing up the last bit of the removal.

That bit just cut through that material effortlessly.

There it is, in position for the first time.

Center of the generator stand is at the same height away from the center of the crank as a real 4-cam motor; based on the measurements I received from Bill Sargent and Joris Koning. Thanks again you guys! It should be ready for me to pick up tomorrow as Bill just had to drill and tap the mounting holes for this stand. I've got a bit of modification to do to the under side of the fan housing tin so that's what I'll be working on after I get it home.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

3/2/16

Machining for 4-cam fan housing complete.

Now ready to accept a 4-cam generator stand.



I originally asked Bill to radius that lower corner as it looked like a bad stress riser for a potential crack. He felt that it shouldn't be problem however after I got it back to my shop I realized that I forgot to mention to him that the entire weight of this engine will be hanging off the bell housing. This block will eventually have to go back for a few other machining procedures so I'll have him radius it then. Still have to add that "new hole" too.

Here's what the cross section of that area looks like.

stand now has someplace to sit.

Bill did a great job of carving out a nice relief for the footings.

Fortunately there was more than enough meat up here to mill down to get the stand height to stock 4-cam specs in relation to the crank.

All done without interfering with existing block features.

Mock up with gen. and fan. The cylinders line up beautifully on this side with the fan and is a natural fit.

Due to the offset, this side is going to require a bit more Tin fabrication to guide air to that far bank.

Bill will have to eventually make me a shaft extension to get the pulleys to line up but no big deal.


Now its onto modifying the belly of the fan housing to get it to seat down flush.


That's up next. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Really appreciated all the machining detail and photo's on the set up's. He looks like a really good guy. Funny half way through this I suddenly thought I really hope there is enough material left after that machining. Next photo down and you confirm there is!!!

This engine is going to look great in the car.

Roy

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, that fan looks to be more rearward than a 4 cam. Is that going to clear your deck lid?

[Bill Sargent]

Justin,

Regarding Jack's question I have installed a 356 pushrod motor in a 59A cab with one of Ibrahim Kuzu's 4 cam shrouds mounted. The shroud sits about 1 inch further toward the front of the car than the shroud on a 4 cam motor and there were no clearance issues with the engine lid.

I currently have a 2 liter 4 cam in the same car and there was a clearance issue with the throttle crossbar hitting the rain tray that sits on the underside of the engine lid. The lid was about 1 inch shy of closing. Since so much else on the car has been modified I chose to modify the rain tray. There are photos of the modification on my "fauxcam" thread on the registry. I expect the crossbar would have the same issue on a pushrod motor with the 4 cam shroud, even though the shroud on a pushrod motor sits further forward.

Based on my experience there may be interference if you use the throttle cross bar, and possibly the shroud if Jack's observation is correct. The earlier carrera throttle linkage systems would avoid the crossbar interference. Or if you are going the fuel injection route you also avoid the problem. The only sure way to test the shroud clearance is to test mount a transmission in the car and then install the Polo block with modified shroud that sits flat on the mounts.

Otherwise looking way cool.

Bill

[Manolin]

Morse cable linkage is possible? With the man behind the steering wheel on this project...it will be the right decision. Look forward to this...

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy, yes Bill is a great machinist and among just a few that I'd entrust to mill on such an expensive piece of hardware. He's also rare in the respect that most machine shops don't want to be bothered with limited custom or one off jobs so I'm lucky to have found him.

Jack once again you have kept me on track, thanks! Clearance with the decklid was certainly one of the concerns early on but since the block has been milled I've had my head in the clouds with excitement creating tunnel vision on the engine and housing only. I clean forgot all about the day it actually has to go in the car. After I read your post I immediately thought, yeah it will probably interfere with the rain tray. Things always go sideways once you begin adding changes and different components so it certainly would be the expected logical outcome. I spent the following session carefully mocking it up in the car to see just how bad it was potentially going to be. Here's a teaser photo:

Fortunately by the time you posted here I had just finished trimming the bottom of the housing out and had it all mounted and set down on the block so I was free to immediately begin fitting it into the car as an accurate representation. I took a ton of photos and will post all that I found out right after I post the fitting and trimming of the housing so I keep it all straight. Thanks again Jack!

Thanks Bill! Yes, I had seen your required clearance modification on your Registry thread. That is a luxury only available to you open car guys. Its not that easy for us coupe owners as our hinges mount directly to the rain tray. Once you begin changing that it opens up a whole can of worms of levelness with the body, opening articulation clearances and general fitment. From what I've been able to tell so far I think its going to clear with no issues but there are many variables still yet to come. If the lid won't close at days end it will go into the box with the rest of stock parts as modifying this original numbers matching lid is out of the question. I'll order one of those trick Alloy GT lids from Trevor's which I may do anyway. As far as the eventual cross-bar linkage I'll just have to see what is required with the fuel delivery system I finally settle on. Yet another variable.
Thank you for the vote of confidence Manolin!
Thanks again for all the help and suggestions you guys!!!
Justin