'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[Phil Planck]

John
Glad Justin understood you indent question, as I do not. Here are some pics from Foam Car that may help.







Phil

[JOP]

John,
Just looked again at your pictures....
Your car is early and it should look more like Justins picture below.
The "real" T-6 has as the BIG outlet as earlier showed
/ JOP

[Jonesy_356]

Great work so far mate. I note that Roland's book has distances for the C model. From what I can tell, the internals of the longitudinals of your BT6 are closer to my BT5 than to the C. So I will add my distances to the mix as previously promised.

I get a distance between the little internal bulkheads of 470mm. The face of the forward bulkhead is 240 mm behind the peak of the inverted 'V' that is formed at the main bend of the inner longitudinal, that has the little rectangular filler piece that is fitted from inside. This puts the rear bulkhead precisely behind the jack spur, which makes sense, as suggested by Phil.

Hope this helps,

ABCGT rules,

Jonesy

[JTR70]

Guys, both of my photos there are of A-models. I'm pretty sure that outlet like the rest of the tube assembly is a completely different animal from your later B/C cars. Like Phil and Per's example pics the opening is much larger and elongated with that unique partition in the center. BTW: thanks for posting those! I wouldn't recommend my photo examples for this area of your car John.

This is the opening I'm used to seeing. (356A)
Justin

Thanks Jonesy!!!!!!!!!!

[John Pierce]

Thanks Guys! Really helpful info.

I was rereading Roland's book last night and looking at a bunch of other people's longitudinals and heater tubes on the web. I came to the same conclusion: my '63 B T-6 was built in September '62 and has a lot of characteristics similar to the B T-5's. More so than the "true" B T-6's and C's. The internal heater tubes with the welded angles instead of bends really show this. I guess Porsche had to use up the old stock before moving forward. The T-5's and T-6's also didn't have the flange at each heater tube end to hold the muffler on with cinch straps.

I'm going to cut the replacement longitudinal to size today and start making the floor heater indent. I bet it's going to look more like the earlier cars when I'm done.

Does anyone know if the heater tube extended beyond the internal bulkheads by several centimeters in the T-5's as in the later cars? I'm also going to have to rethink my rear heater tubes where they come through the torsion housing. The T-6's had a straight termination and then a reducer pipe. Below is a picture of my car as I got it and may be correct for a T-5. Can anyone verify this? Measurements?




I really appreciate the help. As Jonesy said: "ABCGT Rules!!"


JP

[Jonesy_356]

John, as luck would have it I am just about to cut into my 'pristine' longitudinal (RHS). I should be able to phot/measure within 24 hrs.

Jonesy

[Phil Planck]

Well, this just goes to show once again that nothing is absolute. I would never have guessed that a 63 T6 would still be using T5 parts, but my experience level is one T6. Hope you get the T5 info you need John.

Phil

[John Pierce]

Phil, it's pretty cool that each car is a unique build.

Jonesy: Thanks so much for grabbing measurements and pictures. And thank you for getting the measurements on that tab that holds the heater muffler clamp. Could you grab the height of the tab (how much it stands up from the longitudinal) too?


JP

[Jack Staggs]

I have to say that I am quite surprised about the use of T5 parts on this car, as it is a full year in to T6 production.

[Jonesy_356]

Jack - I don't disagree - and yet here we are.

So I'm pretty sure this long had never been opened up. The only sign of non-OEM intervention was where a fish-plate had been welded onto the inside (of the car) inner long, and the HAZ can be seen in some of the photos. Apart from that, it's in pretty good condition.

[Jonesy_356]

More:







Let me know anything else you need. I have taken plenty. You'll note the distance between bulkheads is 440mm on this side. I suspect the other side was a bit bashed about by the jack spur - it was very damaged as was the rear internal bulkhead.

Jonesy

[bbspdstr]

In Porsche's inimical way, the B parts book from 1960 shows a part number for an inner longitudinal, complete with heater muffler, ending in .05
The T-5 supplement book printed in 12/62 shows no changes noted for a later T-5.
The T-6 book published in 8/62, a few months earlier, has the .06 suffix with a different inner member, complete and yes, slightly different as shown and discussed in this thread.
Basically, (at least to me), a chronological overlap and no real way to date a change for a basic chassis part's use from a T-5 to a T-6.

I learn from this attention to detail, so thank you.

I have also learned that the manufacture of the 356s was done by using up parts that would still fit or running out early and using an up-coming part. I've learned that parts manuals are a guide, not a stone tablet from on high. The engine and transmissions and a few other parts can be found to be listed as "From chassis number xxx on" but parts of lesser importance can be only 'dated' by what's found from new or safe examples or to some degree from dated pages of a supplement parts book (as above) and knowing month and year of the build date of the subject chassis.

In other words, Porsche 'faked it' and by extension, gives restorers license to do the same, at least to some degree.

Here is a (bad) picture of a (Nov.30-'61) T-6 Roadster's longitudinal's heated air outlet.




Here's a story I've told many times; many years ago I restored a VERY late (like off the charts) C Coupe that had an ill-fitting rear window that allowed water to rot most of the rear upholstery and sheet metal. As I cleaned and trimmed, I realized from looking at other bare cars present for reference that it was not just a C, it was an A and a B as well. Sorta force fit leftovers and the rear window opening was not true, so no stock rear window could have sealed. All over that car were mismatched parts and the people who built it were either having fun OR pissed that they were being told to just "use the old stuff up, we're not making any more, der 911 mehr vichtig ist." It was built for a retired higher-up AAA person who arranged factory delivery trips and she told me that there was no one before me to deal with rust repair or collision damage. It was what it was. Was it "wrong" and "original" at the same time?

-Bruce

[John Pierce]

Thank you, Bruce. I love hearing about the history of these cars!

Jonesy: Thank you for taking the time to take those detailed pictures! They are SO helpful and help solidify my plans on how to progress. What's really great is that the measurements are very similar to those original pieces that are left on my car and to the measurements in Rolands's book. Could I bother you for pictures and measurements of two other areas on your B T-5? 1. The heater duct indent on the cockpit side where it's welded to the longitudinal from several angles. I need the depth and width of the indent; and 2. The heater pipe where it exits the inner frame below the torsion bar. How much it sticks out of the frame and if there is an angled piece welded onto it (it's length also and diameter). I really appreciate the help.

Cheers,

JP

[Jonesy_356]

John,

here is the cockpit hole:











The heater pipe protrudes 100 mm from the edge of the welded flange at its maximum at the join. It looks like yours is more or less correct here. Because the ovoid hole of the protrusion is in one plane, and the join to the smaller pipe that connects to the heater flapper box is in a plane 90 degrees offset, it is difficult to envisage. There is a bit of parallax in this photo. 100 is the number.




The smaller pipe I can only measure nominally because I haven't wrestled with my heater flappers yet.





The OD of all of these pipes is 57 mm, with a wall thickness of around 1mm:





Hope all this helps. ABCGT rocks, Jonesy

[John Pierce]

Thanks, Jonesy! I can't tell you how helpful those pictures are. It really affirms that I've got a T-5 heater assembly in my T-6. I'll have to rethink the rear pipes.

And now to a little new metal.



Hat clamp bracket measurements if anyone needs them.



Step 1: new hat clamp brackets.



Heater tube mock up. A new inner longitudinal bought from Stoddard, cut to length and the front fitted to what original sheet metal could be salvaged. The triangular cut-out at the bend where the longitudinal turns inward towards the front bulkhead was also placed.



The floor duct hole landmark was taken from the remaining original heater tubes still on the car. I put flanges in the longitudinal at the junction with the original sheet metal near the A-pillar for more strength.



Heater tube floor indent made on a planisher with a high crown.



Fitting pretty well.



Mocked up from the inside. I flanged the inside of the hole to provide more metal to weld to and give more strength.

Next to install the heater tube bulkheads and hat clamp bracket then see how it all fits together.

Thanks for following.