Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[JTR70]

3/10/15
Steering column brace and collar located and set

Dash face getting closer to its final established position while getting the steering column brace and tube aligned to locate the collar mount holes here.

brace was clamped into place and it was used as the template to drill the holes for the collar. Due to the shape of the dash the holes are not square with this flange.

Original dash shows the same hole orientation. Thank god this part is here for confirmation.

collar now mounted for its first fitment.

Everything lining up good so far. The holes are so big in relation to the collar studs that it gives quite a bit of wiggle room if needed. BTW the tube is in upside down for this time as the upper flared end is much too hard on that old original rubber insert for just a test fit.

This end of the brace is now in a slightly different position than it had been with its original coupe version face.

A little closer, more fitting tomorrow. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[John Pierce]

Really looking like a speedster now! The details and fittings do eat up a lot of time. Great job.


JP

[Manolin]

As a popcorn eating lurker, I must say you exhibit far more raw talent than the 'panel beater' that made your parts. Fantastic job making this ill fitting and rough reproduction of a dash work. It is clear the builder of this dash, Steve Hogue, pays no attention to detail with the dash overlap, liberal use of spot welds, and selling his own rendition of a speedster dash to folks like you that dedicate hours undoing and reworking his panels. A hot rod builder, yes. I would never send my cobra or Spyder 550 to have him work on it. Sorry, but the 800 pound gorilla in the room needs to be addressed. Justin, you are no longer to sit an bite your tongue. Ever see the Joe Stafford Spyder 550 restorations of the 90s? A parallel for sure...

I don't discredit the difficulty of building such a piece, so if you have talent, build it right.
It scares me to think the number of cars that ended up with yet worse, the Trevor dashes, which are also going to be devalued or restoration candidates because of such inaccuracies under the paint and upholstery.
They are great parts for hot rods, not for quality restorations.

Subpar parts=$tupidity

[Manolin]

[JTR70]

Thanks a lot John, it's finally transforming with each session.

I appreciate that Manolin and thank you! However,I am in no way comparable to the likes of Steve Hogue and other fabricators like him. I am just a amateur, consumer-hobbyist with only the most basic of tools and knowledge. Actually I consider myself just lucky enough not be doing this under a shade tree somewhere. Correcting short-comings and details on an existing panel is one thing but to actually create these parts from flat stock is a quantum leap in tools and knowhow so there is no comparison at all in my mind. Guys like me depend on guys like Steve to create these items to be able to move forward. Though these parts need a lot of massage and work I would be at a total loss without them here. Thanks again you guys, your comments are always greatly appreciated! Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Justin, I would be tempted to mount up the steering box, complete with flex disc, column, and shaft, to be sure of alignment of those critical pieces. As you know, the Speedster mounting is different than the coupe. The column at times is not centered to the gauges.
BTW, the original dash that you have has a relief for the steering column mounting, unlike the flat new one that you installed. I thought that the relief was a Roadster feature. By edit: I see the OG part has a curved support remaining from the dash runner:
Rubber mounting blocks are different for Speedster vs coupe cab.
http://www.stoddard.com/356-1/front-suspension-and-steering/steering-wheel/644-47-213.html
http://www.stoddard.com/356-1/front-suspension-and-steering/steering-wheel/644-347-755-05.html

[bbspdstr]

It scares me to think the number of cars that ended up with yet worse, the Trevor dashes, which are also going to be devalued or restoration candidates because of such inaccuracies under the paint and upholstery.
They are great parts for hot rods, not for quality restorations.

It is unfair to assume that all replacement parts are the same if hand-made. I have used Trevor's parts for many years when no one else was providing those. Did they take some massaging? Sure, but it was faster/cheaper than me making one from scratch.

Those Speedsters (usually with only the dash top piece) now reside in countries east of the Atlantic, sold for mega-bucks as originals and not hotrods. The Trevor parts took far less for me to fit than that what Justin shows as needed for his.

Trevor provided good front ("nose") panels which I used for many years on many good restorations but as discussed and pictured on this site, I will now use those one-piece parts from Porsche Classic as in the long run, they fit better and are therefore less money overall.

Time, talent and money are all ingredients that must be in balance for a result that works for all parties involved in any car hobby or business..... but we all should still say "thank you" to anyone who even attempts to supply a need 50 years after that model stops being produced.

Recommendations for improvement to those vendors who make certain parts as sub-par, if ignored, is the real problem. I go through that regularly with one big vendor.....I'll try the sample of this or that (Chinese made or otherwise) and give them feedback. I often ask them "If you go to the trouble of making something, why not make it correctly?" Why doesn't the wire color match the original, why is the plating so thin and flimsy, why is the contour of the edge of that part unfitting if you sent an original sample? etc, etc, etc. It's very frustrating at my end and I'm sure after figuring out the problem, hobbyists are even more frustrated.

There I go again, demanding "counterfeit NOS".........silly me.
-Bruce

[JTR70]

That's sound advice Jack, I think mocking it up with the a mounted steering box is a smart move. So a lot of steering columns are not exactly center under the Tach? Good to know, that takes a bit of pressure off.

This alignment and clearance discussion explains why the holes for the clamp are so oversized in relation to the studs.

Here's a better vantage point my old dash it is a Speedster version requiring the flat rubber insert. The remains of the column strut must have thrown you off in the earlier photo. This was a generic piece as it has the relief for the coupe/cab insert as shown in your links.

Thanks Bruce, Your last paragraph rings particularly true!

3/12/15
Addressing dash face contour and fitment issues.

Once I had the approximate distance the dash face should be away from the forward Bulkhead wall (based on my original) my first fitment issue cropped up.

With that distance the corner of the face now swings wide of the A-pillar. If I push this back flush the face is set forward 1 inch+ from where it should be. (the gauge hole area) This means the corner of this face is too tight.

The confirmation I needed came as I held the eyebrow up to it. You can see here how it turns a little too quick and tight not allowing this part to mount flush. That turn will have to be relaxed.
However, once it is, the brow will sit flush, the face can come back out to distance from the trunk bulkhead and the corner will meet up against the A-pillar. I said Should BTW. Drilling spot welds next.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[Meissen540]

Justin,
I read your post, and figured you were aware of the apparent misalignment of the Speedster steering wheel. Every speedster I have seen ( and confirmed had not been worked on in that area ) has the misalignment of the wheel off enter towards the drivers door. Of course, there is nothing definite with these cars. I am amazed how many owners are not aware of it. It's always fun to see the look on their face when you ask why their wheel is not centered. Then you explain they are all that way, and they don't believe you, so they go running around looking at all the Speedsters. That's always good for a 3 beer laugh.
Here are a couple of pictures of my wheel off center wheel. The pictures are not perfect. I know this car has not been worked on in this area, so consider it as from the factory.
Hopefully this helps with confirmation of what you are seeing, and what Jack said.


Column slightly to the Drivers side. Hmm, It looks like my tach is in crooked here.
[attachment=32321]image_2015-03-13-2.jpg[/






Attempting to stand directly behind wheel. Note the misalignment.

[Jack Staggs]

Just to add to my previous post, and Tom's, I suggested installing the complete steering gear to assure that the flex disc is installed in a very relaxed position. Every one in a while a car comes through the shop where the disc is mounted in a somewhat contorted position, accelerating wear on this critical part. Cars that have had considerable reconstruction done can be more troublesome. 356's that came with the excellent ZF boxes have very little adjustment where it bolts to the upper torsion bar tube, having a locating pin. The other area of concern is rubbing of the steering shaft on the column where the shaft exits the column towards the steering box. Turn the shaft several revolutions to test, as the shafts sometimes are not perfectly straight.
I hope this helps.

PS : Don't be tempted to use the urethane "dune buggy" flex discs (usually red). They can fail without warning! Craig Richter has had some experience here on his current Speedster. Craig, your thoughts/pictures?

[JTR70]

Tom, Thank you very much for sharing that detail, its most helpful. I wasn't clearly aware of how off they all were originally. Its all making sense now, if I let the column strut lay naturally it wanted to point the column in the direction of the door and it was driving me nuts! I was really fighting it. With this new insight in mind I'm going to mock it all up again AND with the a steering box and shaft mounted as Jack suggested. Thanks again for the tips you guys!!

Good tip on staying away from the urethane buggy rag-joints Jack. I only trust rubber impregnated with at least a couple of layers of nylon cloth for such a critical job.

3/14/15

Dash face and cap prep work continued

Aside from the initial left corner issue there are several other problems that has forced another slight detour.

The cluster area should be near flat but as you can see the area is cupped and will need a bit of pecking in and around the gauge openings.

The flange joint that runs its length while also needing work was cut way too short as compared to how it was originally done.

Contour issues with the passenger corner as well. It curves inward too deeply and the leading edge at this flange is too tight and sharp.

Another problem at that same flange joint is the shape and contour its holding the cap. Aside from the gauge cluster pod the profile should be symmetrical from side to side. As you can see beginning at the center the profile runs upward to the pod making it asymmetrical with the passenger. It should peak at the center then start back down like the passenger side is doing.

Nothing big or serious on their own but once I added this all together it was time to split these two panels back apart. The amount of spot welds was daunting but fortunately they gave up pretty easily compared to those nasty old factory spot welds.

Wasn't entirely spot welded. some sort of brass or copper alloy was used here and on the back sides of the corners to solder them together.

Also too, having these panels separated will give me a clean shot at installing the flanged vent openings in the cap.


Took some doing but they were apart by sessions end. As you might of guessed I highly recommend you order these panels Un-welded if you can. Fit them yourself its much easier!

Back to relaxing that left corner for the wooden eyebrow.
Thanks for looking! Justin

[roy mawbey]

The last 3 or 4 pages of this thread have been so interesting. I go back 3 pages, go forward and then back again! To understand or try to in my case, the fabrication detail its not easy at all. Once welded thats it, the decision is made.

Manolin makes some valid points in my opinion, but so do Bruce and Justin. Without a formed piece correct or not, to the original the only option is to make it yourself. That needs equipment only a few have and you need also the experience to use it. Sure, its possible like we saw Justin do and modify the cowling under the windscreen, but, without an original copy it would have been so much harder. Bruce makes a good point, a complete front nose is easier than having three separate pieces. But better though to have separate pieces than none at all.
I do think though if fabricators bother to make repro panels they should not expect the buyer to have to make really exceptional changes to make them fit. They all should have original parts to copy and either take impressions or fixtures to inspect against to make sure their dimensions are within a tolerance. I can see so many people buying possibly 3 separate nose panels to make one complete and then not following a perfect way of joining those together. Welding and getting it correct is skilled for sure otherwise the 3 individual parts might be correct but the finished job is as good as the person doing it.

Well done to you Justin and to you Drew going down a similar road. Bruce and Jack as well have been down that road and back again a number of times Always nice to hear their comments.

Roy

[bbspdstr]

....Took some doing but they were apart by sessions end. As you might of guessed I highly recommend you order these panels Un-welded if you can. Fit them yourself its much easier!
...... Justin

In my early days of restoration, there was a fabricator of rudimentary parts in NJ named Hans Donner (now gone) who would make things that I could order in pieces. Rockers, for instance. I could put things where they needed to be without changing anything but an individual component (or two).

We both came out ahead. He charged to same price but didn't have to put them together and I didn't have to take them apart.

Trevor Marshall will do the same for me if the part is waited for and not in stock. The Speedster dash tops, for instance.

I have tried to find a classic picture from my 'big shop' in the later '70s where a Speedster dash top was being replaced in small pie-sections to keep the contours and curves intact. Gas welded but when 'worked' and ground, the result was perfect...if not a little time consuming.

Last week, a Roadster dash being readied for paint was noticed to have a 'swoop' on the left side continued into the area of the combo gauge. Put a gauge into the hole and found that will never be seen as a problem. "It's not a defect, it's a characteristic."

-Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Last week, a Roadster dash being readied for paint was noticed to have a 'swoop' on the left side continued into the area of the combo gauge. Put a gauge into the hole and found that will never be seen as a problem. "It's not a defect, it's a characteristic."

-Bruce

I often will see gauges that do not lay flat with the gasket on curved dash cars. On cars with multiple respray on the dash, sand down the openings for the gauges to bare metal before spraying the finish color. Multiple layers of paint here will preclude fitting of the gauge gaskets. I have a car coming in next week to fix this.

[JTR70]

Thanks again Roy, Your thoughtful comments are always appreciated!

"We both came out ahead. He charged the same price but didn't have to put them together and I didn't have to take them apart."

Absolutely right on from my perspective Bruce.

Thanks for that Jack, helpful to know the gauges don't all seat perfectly flush all the time. As Bruce said its not a flaw but another characteristic.
Thanks again guys! Justin
3/15/15
Dash face prep continued.

Part of relaxing this corner will be the removal of this rolled upper lip as it helps dictate the shape along with the main lower flange.

As you can see on my original the face itself does not have a rolled upper edge but was just left flat and trimmed.

To make life simple and match what was originally done the rest of this rolled lip was trimmed off.

It was the right decision as this lip had created a bad vertical low spot or "roller" right about where the dash emblem will be. Once the lip was removed it to relaxed and is almost uniform across.

Another benefit of having the cap separated is a direct comparison to the original is now possible. Its placed over it here so I could see just how far it needed to come back. As you can see the bottom flange is bowed too far compared to the original. Its pretty much the same story as with the cowl, the contours and shapes are over exaggerated.
Here again is where having this part on hand has proven invaluable. I'd have no basis to question that shape otherwise.

One nice confirmation, the holes for the clamp are as close as you get.

Though slightly tight as well the Right side conforms much closer.

a relief cut along the flange quickly changed things.

As the corner laid down I also began ironing in and around the gauge cluster area.

after all that it was time to test the brow again.

Much to my great relief its beginning to fit together.

At the same time I'm plotting the rest of the dash accessories like this padding strip, then the grab-handle etc.

Again I'd be lost without these reference parts.

Going to begin planning for the final shape of the corner flanges at the A-pillar. Lots yet to do. Thanks for looking! Justin