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The Resurrection of Foam Car - 63 T6B

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  • OK, Phil, I have discovered that my cell phone can take close-ups, too!

    There is a trim-to-fit part at the bottom of a T-6 that extends below the sill, usually with a small 'L' support.
    The earlier cars did not have that extension;

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    Disclaimer:
    I did not take time right now to re-read every post of this thread, but I'll try to explain what I usually do at the corner behind the door.
    You'll see this jamb is being trimmed and see the total perforation at the bottom;
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    I'll try to find pictures of the rebuild with a repro lockpost AND a repair piece for the quarter. If we trim the original to expose the spotwelded joining of the multi-stepped overlap and eliminate rust to save it, why recreate that 'problem' for the sake of 'originality? Thanks to a rotisserie for comfort and speed, or just on stands high enough to be efficient, I'll weld the angle joint from the rear with NO overlap.

    There were always 3 steps/corners, but they varied from car to car, originally sculpted with lead filler to make contours and 'perfect' gaps. Some original cars have huge amounts of lead, some very little...but most I have worked on have had rust behind, some with only the lead holding things together. The more lead, the longer the rust isn't showing.

    It's important to remember to concentrate on the trailing edges of the front fender and the door, as the front of the door's step and the rear fender/quarterpanel's filler is 'sculpted' to mirror that contour. The license to 'cheat' is given by adherence to 'originality' but I also try to subtly remove the causes of why we have to work on those areas to begin with.....like the overlaps of metal and spotwelds.

    First, I get the door where it looks right and place the latch on the door and install the lockpost and striker to engage each other to check angle. Adjust in/out and angle as necessary. Seal channel, stepped curves will be challenging, usually, as repro needs more than NOS would....key word; usually. Sometimes, a slight slit gets cut to allow part of the lockpost to come in, but it becomes obvious what's needed by keeping a flexible yardstick or other guide bridging the door and the quarter for reference. Add or subtract wherever. I use Clecos, Tek-screws or MIG tacks, magnets, tape, whatever, to hold and check. This is where I don't want to get too close to "right on" and would rather have a small 'turning in' of the corner so I can build the lead (or the epoxy filler, whichever the job can afford). That is why quite often, original lead is 'feathered' back on the quarter and the depth of the 'steps' are irregular (but smooth).

    I have pictures somewhere on the desktop, but it's the time to locate them that's harder to find....but it's Saturday and I said I'd post something. I'm open to seeing/hearing of other ways this is done. Doing this stuff for a long time doesn't mean it's being done right.

    Comment


    • Bruce,

      Now I really realise how sensible I was all those years ago leaving that lock post post area alone and cutting well enough way from it for it not to cause problems. You are of course correct the forming or sculptering in lead of steps does make for irregular dimensions from one side of the car to other. I see your point exactly about overlap and spot welding as well. I noticed Justins picture on this thread showing his original lock post area. Your ideas to improve can only be good, for sure the original methods didn't make for long life. Even in the 60's it was almost the first place I looked at for bubbles.

      I do have one question on Phil's car the lock post seems to missing material at the outer edge would he be best replacing the lock post before trying to fit his new outer quarter panel? I am sure Phil will be asking but what would you do?

      Great information makes me realise though how much you need to know before attemping some jobs.

      Roy

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      • Bruce
        Thanks for the added advice. As I am retaining the original lock post, and if I understand your "method", I will trim the single flange on the quarter repair panel to butt up 90 degrees to the rearward flange on the lockpost where the quarter was originally spot welded. With the quarter slightly low to the door, I will weld the 90 degree butt from inside the quarter. If you have time, look at Tom's post today(SC Coupe Restoration) where he has repaired the lockpost flange we are discussing. His repair flange appears twice as wide as the flange on Foam Car. If that is where it should end, I will need to extend my flange(ugh).

        Today I scraped undercoating off of the bump stop bracket and a few other areas under there. Put a second coat of rust neutralizer on surface rusted metal. Then spent an hour removing remaining dents in lower quarter above the rocker. Got the rocker panel remounted and trimmed at the front for a later butt weld.

        Another problem: the hole for the torsion bar extraction seems to line up(centered) on the tubular cover projection. However, the rear of the rocker extends a good 1/2 inch past the wheel opening above it. I can rework the rear of the rocker, but the distance from the hole to the wheel opening will be reduced by that 1/2" and will not match the other side. The other option is to rework the wheel opening on the quarter to move it back. Need to do some more measuring and checking of the old rocker. Possible the quarter wheel opening is off from long ago accident repair.

        I also installed the door window glass frame(just the top 3 bolts) to se how that fits. Fortunately it looks very good.


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        Lower front door gap needs some work on the fender/rocker side yet.

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        • Bruce(again) - Just visited your web site and found a picture of your quarter/lockpost repair. I can do that. Assume it was tacked on the outside to locate, then welded from the inside.


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          • Phil,

            Oh...yeah...I have a website, don't I. What's up now is the old (stale) one as the newer one was hacked to death, taking a server with it. It was said to be too "interactive" and thus open to hackers both human and bot. Glad you found that picture and yes, the tacking was outside and the welding done inside, underneath and behind.

            The rockers are another story or thread in themselves. I still like to get them apart so fitting is easier. The crowned version is the only one to use, as that and a welded door bottom vertical can be made to match in contour, the sill can go where it needs to be, etc.

            Wonder why one end fits and the other doesn't? I've measured originals and found the repros to be the same length, but the welded-into-one versions wind up not fitting? Part of that is QC and part is the "made by hand" nature of the beast.

            It's best to just average those out or make one end or the other fit and deal with the other end as needed. On the rear of yours shown, I'd stand the rocker end up a little straighter and radius the fender arch tighter to meet it, (add a small slice into the widened cut) as all you need is a smooth arc that looks right to the eye. I unroll the metal that's over the wire and freehand the arc on that, adding or subtracting as needed, then re-roll the metal. If there is a little hiccup, the MIG adds and the grinder smooths. It's important to join the wire completely from arc down to the lower edge of the rocker, for strength. Need some added wire? Those political lawn signs have these wire frames....

            You will also notice that the recess for the VW shifter hole access plug, er, torsion bar access covers on the rockers are too deep. The originals had a sort of gasket made from scraps of perf'd headliner vinyl, so you can use more than one and maybe even halves to get the right 'tilt' to make a smooth finish.

            Also note where the access hole on the front rocker horizontal under the lower hinge pin is. It's a shame to need to elongate it after it's installed, but the rubber plugs can hide those mods if not too bad, but that's another reason to get disassembled parts of the rocker.

            BTW, that piece in the picture from my site was no doubt made from a wood hammerform like the one I sent you. That gets the basic shape with curved edge, a shrinker/stretcher fine tunes the edge curves to match the door.

            Hey, it just turned Sunday!

            Regards,
            -Bruce

            Comment


            • "I do have one question on Phil's car the lock post seems to missing material at the outer edge would he be best replacing the lock post before trying to fit his new outer quarter panel? I am sure Phil will be asking but what would you do?"

              Hi Roy!

              I really only replace an entire lockpost if it is really bad all over. Otherwise I make what's needed. I've been known to slice a lockpost and graft in only part of a repro, especially when you weigh shop labor cost vs cost of the repro part. I've used the lower half and saved the upper for the next 356 that needs that...and yes, each rust problem is different. I try my best to retain as much original metal as best I can, but there is a financial line when it's a business.

              I made a die/form for the Karmann floor plugs to add into repro floors for those who want to pay for the extra time. That too for the outer longitudinal Karmann signature down-dimpled holes for drainage. Details make the job, but some don't want to pay anymore than necessary and I put up only a mild fight and give a quiet sales pitch.

              I plug weld the overlaps needed and will take a drift or centerpunch and dent the flange between the plug welds to look like spot welds...for those who care. Anyone want to buy an old Linco spot welder? I haven't used that thing in decades since I was going along just fine and once in a while heard a 'pop/twang' as the random occasional spots would cool and let go. I've seen a thread somewhere about that.....where's DG?

              -Bruce

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              • Bruce
                Thanks so much for taking the time to analyze my specific situation. I now know how to proceed. Speaking of saving lock posts, this is a part I made over 10 years ago to repair the rusted lower part of the lock post. I made a depression in a piece of hard maple and clamped the blank to it. Used a hard wooden rod to from the circular depression:

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                Here's the hole it went in:

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                • "I've seen a thread somewhere about that.....where's DG?"

                  I'm right here Bruce. Following along with rapt attention Phil's saga, as well as the others. This is the best 356 site on the internet, hands down!

                  I believe it was Sunday last, as I'm sitting reading this, quietly having my morning coffee, when I hear loudly "foam car? What the hell is a foam car?". My wife has been reading over my shoulder (thankfully I hadn't chosen that moment to view Bill's latest girlie pic!). So I page back to the photos of Phil chiseling bags and bags of expanded foam from the car, sending Charlotte into spasms of uncontrollable laughter. She thinks you guys are just as crazy as me!

                  Somebody should snatch your Lenco up muy pronto. Except they are like shipping a hippopotamus, or a small nuclear containment vessel. I love mine. Finicky devil. Playing and experimenting with it all the time. It does do as you say if all isn't just right, and sometimes even then (hint: small, clean tips; lower on the dial, more is not always better with this device). But it can make good welds in otherwise impossible situations.

                  And Phil, all looking good. Thanks for the posts.

                  Take care,
                  DG

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                  • Phewwww, Dave, glad you are lurking and not "too busy" as I have been lately. Yes, Justin has the best thing going on for all early Porsches, doesn't he?! It's actually fun here.
                    A new way to communicate, but taking me back to the early Jerry Keyser days of the Registry. Maybe this can grow like that did but stay sober and fun in it's leadership and gentlemanly (or gentlewomanly) in it's 'membership.'
                    Anyway, you posted: "I believe it was Sunday last, as I'm sitting reading this, quietly having my morning coffee, when I hear loudly "foam car? What the hell is a foam car?". My wife has been reading over my shoulder (thankfully I hadn't chosen that moment to view Bill's latest girlie pic!). So I page back to the photos of Phil chiseling bags and bags of expanded foam from the car, sending Charlotte into spasms of uncontrollable laughter. She thinks you guys are just as crazy as me!

                    I've been looking for applicable pictures for this thread. I found another laughable picture of where we (who get parts cars as restoration candidates) begin.
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                    The car was so bad the guy wanted to dump it, so I mentioned Adam. He had heard of Adam (who hasn't?)and wanted the cost for my time back. There was a running SC Euro engine, good 741 trans and complete serviceable B brakes, gauges, suspension...just a funky body fixed long ago by likely a prison shop or middle school vo-tech.

                    They couldn't reach a deal, so the guy said "It was never about money. Can you fix this?" I said, "Sure, it's just more and bigger repair panels" (I never say "patch")...and so it goes.

                    I keep saying "they can't get any worse!" and I am proven wrong soon after.
                    I am about to begin a complete do-over of an older restoration on a fairly nice '63 C-2 Coupe which I will offer to document somewhere here, wherever Justin wants to do with it.

                    Also, I stayed up too late last night reading the 'lawsuit update' thread on the Registry site from Gordon's first posting to the last most-current and want to thank you again as one of the few who made sense...and especially for giving me 3 write-in votes!

                    Realizing as I read that, for the first time continuously, how easy this lawsuit debacle would have been to avoid, watching die-hard supporters of the status quo blabber without all the information available, watching the few more sensible people turn their opinions 180*...and all the while realizing how important Justin's personal creation is as a release...of emotion, for fun, for information and just plain comfort when it comes to the cars to which we are addicted.
                    Back...on topic....I'll get back to work now...as I'm at the shop on a Sunday....with the acquiescence of a patient wife who thinks I'm crazy anyway.
                    Regards,
                    -Bruce

                    Comment


                    • Bruce, Thank you for sharing your insight and photos! Its always great to a pros input! That coupe rear quarter was a huge mess, one of many I am sure! BTW: the go cart wheel is a sporty touch on your body cart.
                      Hey David, its a good thing you were on the "right thread post" when your wife walked in!
                      Phil, keep at it, you're getting so close. I'm sure this vacation will be a nice break for you to come back fresh! My thanks again to all of you guys for making this forum such a great place to visit and to learn!
                      Justin
                      Justin Rio

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                      • Bruce - Looking at Toms's flange where the quarter is spot welded, it appears much wider than the flange on your web site and posted above by me. I assume it was either trimmed back for proper fit of the repair panel, or that was all that was left of it like mine.

                        Today I took some reference pictures and removed more lead at the top. Then cut up the quarter to where the downturned flange was missing. May go even higher, as discovered a patch welded in way up there not done by me. There was a remnant of the double flange way at the top, so the rest I either removed years ago or it disappeared on it's own. Also, at the very top was black filler putty which I removed.

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                        Got the quarter inner coated in zinc rich galv. Ref. bump stop bracket - is that hole at the bottom a water drain hole? If so the tube is really plugged up.

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                        • May as well go all the way and remove the rest of that lead Phil and make sure there are no surprises under there...
                          Justin Rio

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                          • As I have decided to go up even higher with this repair panel, I needed to make the contour match my quarter. I did several tuck shrinks and go it closer:

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                            I did the first 2 tucks with this tool:

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                            but then remembered I had made a better tool for tucking short flanges so pulled that one out:

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                            Here

                            is a tuck made with this tool:

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                            There are some good youtube videos on how to hammer down a tuck.
                            Fit is getting better:


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                            After a couple more tucks and stretching of the reverse curve it is finally flush:

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                            Here you can see where the tucks and stretching were done on the flange:

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                            Yep Justin, need to remove rest of that lead and go all the way up with this panel.
                            Attached Files

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                            • Beautiful job! The close-ups nicely show how you accomplished the curves better than any book can. Thanks for posting.
                              jjgpierce@yahoo.com

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                              • Really nice job Phil! For sure, A lot of time spent tweaking and contouring these parts so they'll fit properly; par for the course. So you made a gathering tool from a pair of bolt-cutters? Very slick and they seam to do a nice job of it. Did you pick this one up from the welders forum? Good choice BTW going all the way up that flange. Looking forward to your next installment! Justin
                                Justin Rio

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