The Resurrection of Foam Car - 63 T6B

[Phil Planck]

Thanks Roy. You have been a good cheerleader for a lot of us, supplying your wealth of knowledge.
Phil

[Phil Planck]

Got the differential torn down this morning. I have posted some of these pics and questions on the Registry forum in hopes that some of the trans rebuilders will chime in. Carrier looks to be crack free:





Pinion gears have 1, and 2 bad teeth respectively:

[bbspdstr]

Phil, I have not kept up with transmissions since subbing those out to technicians with better skills than me (especially after my special tools were stolen).... but remember that the most prevalent cracking was from the wedging pin in the side of the dif. Even cracked, those could go a very long time without coming apart if not abused.

We used to think..."Aw, it's all VW and it'll be easy and cheap to find" and that's not true anymore. Guys are paying a LOT of money for 356 transaxles now on the gamble there will be good internal parts that can recover with a profit what is paid for the cores. A good used R&P is more than enough at resale to cover a $1,500 core pig-in-a-poke.

A dif, if it's checked and good, can last a long time if reassembled properly. The spider gears are fairly plentiful, as what you show is abnormal in my own experience. Synchros can be swapped 4th for 1st and 3rd for 2nd. Bearings are relatively 'cheap' so while it's apart, why not?

There are some VERY knowledgeable guys on the R site but I no longer even lurk there. If you get feedback of any value, please let those of us in (self)exile know, please.

-Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Thanks Bruce
I posted a few more pictures on the R and got feedback from two transmission builders. I also called Vic and he has spider gears. However, after finding 4 aw shits so far, I think I am going to haul this thing down to Vic's shop to have him check/set the pinion dimension, backlash and whatever else to do with the R&P. It had 10K VW bolts retained by copper wire. 2 aw shits right there. The spider gears is a 3rd, and then the thin shim on the ring gear was on the wrong side of the thick one. It was inboard and formed its own chamfer on the ID. Someone has been in there who was about as good as I am on transaxles, only I have access to forums, the internet and stuff surely not available when this work was done.

[bbspdstr]

Phil, you are lucky the trans is no worse than you discovered and especially that it was not filled with.....foam!!!!

It's very important to get the R&P set up correctly. Tell Vic that you need that box for racing and his return time to you may improve.

-Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

FWIW, axles and trunion gears were matched by color code, pink, blue and green (?), at least in VW, which are direct replacement parts for 356. I have never been able to discern any difference by repeated attempts to measure them. I have long since abandoned any concern of mismatch of the color code, only checking for excessive free play of the axle to the fulcrum plates. Oversize fulcums have been long available for correction. Back in the early 70's few shops were repairing VW or 356 transmissions, as good used units could be had for low cost. Anyways, I decided to learn how to repair these gearboxes. I was soon flooded with work from other shops, as no one was doing them, at least in my area. It is interesting to note that gearbox repair on VW is much more sensitive than 356! During those times, parts could only be had a the authorized dealership. After studying the manuals, factory and otherwise, I determined that some pieces that were recommended to be replaced as matching pairs. I thought otherwise, and asked the parts manager, Ed Groon (who looked like a football coach - think Bum Phillips), told me "whatever you are doing, keep doing it. You are having a far more success rate than our factory trained mechanics." and supplied the individual pieces. It struck me as strange that the parts could be purchased that way as opposed to factory recommendation. As years passed I continued to study these intricate assemblies, and through close inspection of factory photos of ring and pinion machining, and lapping matching machines, I decided to to attempt to fit unmatched ring and pinion gears on 356. Crazy, huh? I have probably installed 20 of them, with my special installation techniques, which do not allow for use of factory setting tools. All of them were very quiet, some more than matched used RP set by the scribed subjective numbers. BTW, some RP # dont jive. No failures in 20+ years. BTW, don't try my methods at home!!!
This diatribe is meant to beg the question... How critical is this stuff? I don't know.
BTW, diff carriers, axles, side gears, fulcrum plates, planetary gears, axle tubes, and many others can be had from early VW. Have fun!

[Phil Planck]

Bruce
Yes, lucky so far. And I had not thought about the lack of foam. Good point.
Jack
Interesting observations and that you have developed your own technique. My axles have black rings on them. Seems to be a snug fit but will eventually do some measuring at the fulcrums. Thanks for sharing all of this.
I did record the backlash off of the ring gear(.015) and the pinion depth off of the pinion, along with the matching numbers on both(whew-they matched). Vic Skirmants is going to measure both and hopefully with a new thin shim all is good and he does not have to open up the tranny to correct pinion depth. It's at least a 7 hr round trip down to his shop, but closest and best. Not an expert on ring gear wear, but pattern looks good to me. I have been cleaning internal parts and the other axle tube and bearing flange. Looks like some minor shrapnel marks on the bottom of the housing, possibly from remnants of the 3 bad spider teeth. Hope to take the parts to Vic's shop later next week.

[DG58INNM]

Phil, good to see you making more progress on foam car. The comments on here about transaxles are a treasure of info for me and others in the future. You are boldly going where no man (at least us amateur men) has gone before. And I agree with Bruce, count your blessings it wasn't full of foam. Ha ha!

Take care,
DG

[Phil Planck]

DG
That's what all this posting we do is about. Helping each other and those that come after us. I have been cleaning, and cleaning transaxle parts. All of the differential is disassembled and cleaned. I got my Stoddard shipment today with stronger bolts, lock plate, throwout bearing, and other parts. As Jack noted, the release fork shaft bushings are different and will need to be honed out. Got the easier side installed today:


You can see old and new at the edge of this pic comparing the mainshaft seals. The blue is the old one. New one is a lot different but assume will work okay:



After getting all of the old gear oil cleaned off the bottom of the housing you can see evidence of shrapnel, I assume from the 3 missing spider gear teeth.





Here is the empty housing, and you can see the two axle tubes reassembled laying on the floor. Second assembly went faster than first, as you sort of learn how to line up the bearing flange and tube for good pin alignment.



Here is the old throwout bearing and fork compared to the new parts:



I spent last night studying the factory manual pages for measuring and setting pinion depth and preload on the carrier housing. Wish I had access to those nice measuring tools.

[Phil Planck]

I got the cross shaft bushing honed out with a lot of effort. Unfortunately, when I thought I was finished the shaft was not aligned with the hole for the other bushing. It was a little too far rearward. I decided after all of the effort to get the one bushing opened that I would re-use the old bushing on the off lever side, as it does not wear as much. After some mental mulling I decided to hone just one side of the new bushing at the inboard end. This allowed the shaft to center with the other bushing and it now moves freely but nice and snug.

Tomorrow the case and differential components go to Vic Skirmant's shop to check/set pinion depth, carrier preload, and backlash.

[Jack Staggs]

Phil, did you turn down the od of the cross shaft bushing a few thousands of an inch before fitting it? That can help quite a bit. How did you hone the id of the replacement bushing? I generally use a brake hone there, after turning the od, as a very special self aligning reamer ($$$) would be required for perfection.Those marks on the bottom of the case are from grinding the casting flashing off when new, not from contact of shrapnel. Binding of axle tubes is a somewhat subjective adjustment of the gasket stack. Slight rotations, clockwise or counter clockwise of the axle tubes while loose from the spring plates can give substantial variations. I tend to favor a looser fit there, as the effect of free play there on rear alignment will be negligible. Polish off the scuffs on the bell end of the tube, and the diff side plates a bit. Don't get greedy.
I noticed that the new TOB is different than the one that was previously fitted. Different depth. Be sure that this is correct, as a mis-match can work, sort of.
It sounded like you were going to attempt the repair yourself from some of your posts. Glad that you are going with a pro. Vic will take care of you, no doubt!

[Phil Planck]

Jack
I will recheck the throwout bearing height. I did a quick visual and thought they were the same. Hopefully the pic is an illusion. I had no way of accurately removing material from the od of the bushing. It drove in fairly easy. My hone started out as the clutch alignment tool with some 120 sandpaper wrapped around it, as I do not have a brake hone that small. When that got the bore opened up some, I wrapped a piece of masking tape around it and repeated. Then I discovered the clutch tool shaft had a slight taper to it, so I found a wood dowel that would now fit the slightly larger bore. I kept checking with the cross shaft for fit. Finally got it to fit(1.5 hrs latter) but then discovered the misalignment at the other bushing hole. I used the shift selector rod(hockey stick) with sandpaper on just one side to change the angle of the bore slightly. It did not take much to get it to center. After all that, I decided not to use the other new bushing and do this all over again.
Nice to know I don't have shrapnel marks. I never planned to do the gauging myself. Original plan was to open it up to check for type of ring gear bolts. When I found what someone had done with the bolts, the bad spider gears, and the preload shim on the wrong side of the spacer I decided it was time to bring in the big guns.
Phil

[roy mawbey]

Phil,

Good decision to bring in the big guns. You have worked hard on that but in the end its better to be safe than sorry. Nothing worse than putting it all back then having to remove it again.

A good story so far. It will be good to hear how Vic got on with it.

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Hauled the transaxle parts down to Vic's shop today. Vic got out his P33 and measured pinion depth and internal housing width. The pinion depth was short by .004". Vic says that may be the thickness of the gasket up front so pulled the transmission out, peeled up the gasket and sure enough it was .004". Removed the gasket, cleaned of the flanges and used Yamabond that I brought with no gasket. Vic does not use Yamabond so I will be at fault if it leaks. With the pinion depth corrected he measured the carrier width to calculate spacer requirement. My spacers would not work so we swapped for 2 he had that were the needed thickness and a better(flat) shim. Installed the ring gear along the way and Vic measured backlash in about 6 locations. It was very close to spec so no more adjustments required. That's the good news. The semi bad news is that magnaflux revealed a crack in the carrier at the spider bearing surface on the retaining pin side. I learned not to touch the crack or it disappears. Vic said it might go on the 4th cross country trip we take, so it will be a contest between my AA wrist pins and the carrier to see which lasts the longest(guess I should include myself in that contest). Even with my interference, Vic got all of this done in 2 hours, plus got me set up with 2 good spider gears, a roll pin to replace the soft steel pin and 2 thin gaskets to add to the .010" Stoddard gaskets for installing the axle tubes. Oh, and did a quick visual/feely inspection of the tranny gears and axle gears. Ah, and showed me a trick before tightening the ring gear.
The housing is back on my stand awaiting reassembly.

Here is Vic checking backlash with his homemade guage:

[Phil Planck]

After mulling it over, I decided I might have 4 or more cross country trips left in me, so I located a good used one and it is on it's way. Will probably need to change out spacers.

Today I installed the clutch cross shaft. I used a small punch to locate the roll pin in the holes and drove them in. Not the easiest thing to do as they need to be well aligned and are rather hard to get started. Once started, they go in with some pretty good whacks.








Next I installed a new return spring:





Before installing the clutch parts I installed a new mainshaft seal. Used a long pipe to thread through the trans mount and over the shaft to drive the seal in. Had to be careful, as no stop on the replacement seal. Coated the O.D. of the seal with RTV before installing.






We all have our favorite chemicals. I do a lot of shot shell reloading and shotgun cleaning and found a good lube for the collet on my reloading press. I used it on the throwout bearing trunions. I sprayed the guide tube with Remington's dry lube which has Teflon in it.
Per others recommendations I am using Yamabond 4 on the case joints.