1959 356A S/R coupe project chassis # 108625

[JTR70]

PM sent John. Thanks again! Justin

[Jbrooks]

Justin

Do you have the VW 256 to check the alignment of the tubes? If not I have one I can send down to you. Tom Perazzo use it to check his 356, and posted a video on using it.

[roy mawbey]

Justin , I now know more about a Cellette mounting table than I ever knew. If I were a little closer I would pop over to see this for myself. Well done on explaining it is not easy at all. Now I need to see how you are going to pull it out !! Where to place equipment to do that? Its been an eye opener to see this work in operation.

Super Justin !
Roy

[JTR70]

How much was the front beam of this car shifted?
Now that I had the back end of this car set in the jigs I was very curious to know just how far out the front beam of this car actually was from factory specifications. To get an idea I ran masking tape around the perimeter of the front fixture bases to mark their footprint while bolted down in their set location on the beams. The fixtures where then unbolted from the beams so I could install the pins into the torsion housing to see how far off the bases where in relation to the masking tape.
Not nearly as bad as it seems. Maybe 5MM worth of difference.
As well as being back the beam is also slightly cocked upward on this side. This is one of those detials that could go unoticed without these jigs Roy.
The left side is also back but not as far. It angles slightly to the right as would be expect with the right side pushed back. Technically this is nothing and could all be compensated for in the final wheel alignment. This car would track straight down the road just fine if left alone but since we're here and have the tools will pull it out back into factory specs.
In preparation to pull the beam out I'm going to begin removing a bit more "connective tissue" in and around it to make the eventual pull correction a little easier on everyone. Besides this outer layer of steel running around the tubes needs to be peeled back anyway to get at the last remnants of the battery box side wall underneath it. This coming up next.

Thaks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

Thank you Roy and again always great to know that these posts are of some use and interest. I did want to share and dispel any voodoo or black magic that seems to surround this system at times. Its just a frame dozer at the end of it all but as you stated the dedicated jigs do and will highlight any slight misalignment that could go undetected otherwise (which I'll show next). Yes, a big investment but as you stated, very saleable down the road but in the meantime it gives me the capability to rebuild a future chassis that's severally bent, in two pieces or entirely from scratch...and not just an old 356 BTW. I've always been interested in building off-road tube chassis like my buddy Warren and this bench gives me a solid foundation to pursue that...
Thanks again Roy and Happy New year to you! Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

I have often wondered about how to set up the Cellette. Your photos are so good, its no easy task unless as you have managed to obtain all the parts! You have done so well there and you can now be certain on seeing errors!! Really impossible to be sure without that fixture . In fact so hard to know what you buying with a 356 unless you have all that gear. I think it really was money well spent Justin expensive for sure but you can check anything with no guessing!! Also I guess its always a very saleable item in the future and would suit those involved with 356 repair work like you always are attempting.

Such an interesting thread this one, just like all your others. Hope others can see this sort of info is so important to 356 restoration its very rare to see it so closely detailed !
Well done and thanks!

Roy

[JTR70]

Body finally jigged and set on the bench.
After an evening of photo research on the web I was able to confirm that yes, this lateral orientation of the rear torsion footing was correct.
Here was a new problem that cropped up. The locking pin hole that establishes the fixtures height and orientation into the footings receptacle was now 90 degrees out. Had I not found confirmation on the web that this configuration was correct I would have been thrown for a loop. Considering this is a reproduction fixture set this is just an oversight. This hole was just indexed wrong when the shank was weld on; an easy mistake to make as the rest of the fixtures shanks/locking pins are oriented this way. IE front to back.
The simple solution was to run this pair of fixtures up to my machinist to add an additional locking pin hole in the correct 90 degree offset. My first thought was to tap an intersecting hole but that I feared would weaken the shank too much. Fortunately the footings have a secondary hole so Bill calculated its distance to preserve the fixtures original height and orientation but now utilizing the lower pin hole in the base.
At last the car was finally mounted on the bench correctly. Back end is jigged and locked in so I can now work my way forward and accurately highlight and locate the front beam. I'll show that next.

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

Dialing in the footings:
As you can see the receptacles in the footings are not centered but indexed to one side and can potentially be mounted 4 different ways onto the planks. My initial setting for all four of these bases was as pictured with the receptacles oriented to the front. Being very green to the world of cellette bench set up this seemed like the best position as near as I could tell. Once the car was mounted at the rear torsion housing this position placed the body too far forward by about an inch and over shot the front jigs by about that distance. The forward trans mount fixtures (second plank here) would not reach the flanges on the housing by about the same distance further confirming this was not correct. Next stab at it was to rotate the rear torsion tube footings by 180 degrees placing the receptacles to the back. The body was now too far back by about an inch. The front beam was now behind the jig pins by well over an inch! This couldn't be right either. No way had that beam been shoved back a full inch. There is not enough deformation in the chassis to account for that much movement. When I tried installing the trans mount jigs they were completely crowded out no matter how the base was rotated so this orientation proved incorrect as well.
After the first two positions where gamed out I was onto a lateral orientation pictured above.
This orientation turned the trick almost immediately. The forward trans mounts locked into position with the mounting pins. Since the back of the car is damage free this is the baseline. All that mattered at the moment was that it all mounted and lined up back here first...and it was.
The front misalignment was now showing a more realistic and expected distance with the pins which reflected the deformation in the chassis. Not a full inch back as I was seeing on my second try.
Left side was just a few MM's back too. Again being new to all of this I was still a bit in doubt if I had the car on there correctly so that evening I went back on the web looking for more confirmation photos with a new base of experience from the days session.

More to come...

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

New 356 fixtures from RD
Stepped up and purchased a set of fixtures from RD. A very nice kit, big, heavy with clean machined parts. A lot of machine time invested for precision so I could further appreciate the rather large price tag for this set. Actually it was all very expensive, each additional plank I had to buy was just under a grand each and the footing set was 650.00 which was a very good deal. All totaled it was quickly approaching 10K to finish outfitting this bench for a 356. Glad this hunt was over!
Bench now moved into position under the body. I lucked out again as my rotisserie configuration allowed just enough room to maneuver it underneath.
Started at the back and lowered the body down onto the rear torsion housing mounts first. This would allow the front of the body to pivot from there as I lowered the front end down off of the rotisserie with my cherry picker. Lucked out again as all these contraptions had space to overlap and work keeping this a one-man operation. Hard to tell in this shot but the front torsion housing was going to over shoot the pins by well over an inch; not due to old accident damage BTW. This would be a discovery adjustment and part of the learning process as it went.
Lowered down fully and officially off of the rotisserie and onto the bench but the front just resting on a bottle jack at this point as again, the locating pins where well out of range. The body mounting continues...

Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

This bench sat out in the Florida elements for at least several seasons so the bolts holding the pair of beams on it when this bench arrived were completely rust frozen. I tried several rounds of penetrating oil and torch heat but the Allen heads stripped out on me before they gave up. I then had to drill the bolt heads out and hammer the beams upward and over the bolt shanks. A true PIA as they are a snug machine fit but I eventually got them both dismounted. Just getting ready to free this last rear beam so it could be cleaned and turned around for a 356 application. Rear beam cleaned, flipped over and with rear trans hoop mount footings in position. BTW; all hardware was thoroughly greased as I never want to deal with frozen bolts on this rig again.
These beams are deceptively heavy and weigh every bit of 85+ lbs. each. Actually everything is very beefy as it should be for frame straightening but care really had to be taken while working with these planks alone.
3/4 of the way there...
Bench now ready for the 356 specific fixtures. That next...

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

Cellette Bench Set up:


I still have several loose ends to tie up in the engine compartment but in continuation with the chassis repairs I'm moving to the front of the car to confirm how much the front beam has been shifted from its previous front end collision. By the detectable deformation to the chassis behind the beam it isn't very much but while we're here we'll get it trued and blessed on a Cellette bench. This will also offer further legitimacy to the quality of this car's restoration once its completed.

As things sometimes workout, I was taking delivery of an old Cellette MUF7 several years ago. My buddy Ric had bought several benches as a package from GK restorations after Gary Kempton passed and this bench was amongst them. Ric was moving and cleaning out so this one was shipped to me. The day it arrived pictured above. Bare, save for two cross beams and in extremely weathered condition but hey, it was a real Cellette bench. A very long way from mounting a 356 chassis to it so I had to do some research and hunting for the additional hardware it lacked.
Fast forward several years later and I had located and purchased the three additional beams it lacked. (It needed a pair of outrigger beams for the front and one more basic cross beam.)
As well as a set of original Cellette footings and all the needed hardware to mount the beams to the bench and then the footings to beams.
Through the years the bench was a storage shelf but now with some components to move forward it was cleared off to begin figuring out where these crossbeams and footings needed to mount for a 356 application.
Based on a factory Cellette diagram and various photos found on the web I was able to dial in their position.

[JTR70]

Block modification:
To shield this enlarged hole a pair of "Visors" like the example above will be added to both ends of the block.
This way no matter where the block is set the slotted hole remains covered top and bottom. Finishing out this last detail a bit later.

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

Adjuster modification complete.
Basic hole elongation complete. Now onto fine file shaping.
Took a few tries but eventually got the shoulder of this grub bolt to slide snug and smoothly into its new space.
Block and bolt in full maxed out position.
Adjuster modification complete.
With this increased slotted hole size the block no longer covers and protects this opening completely from the eliments.

[JTR70]

Upper portion of the gusset now opened as needed for tool access in maxed out position.
Gusset modification complete and now onto elongating the upper portion of the slotted holes in the tubes.
A little blurry but the etched cut line highlights how much is going to be removed.
Taped guide lines to make sure I keep the shoulders true.
Pilot holes drilled at the center of what needs to go. Tapered reamer bit was next to bring this initial hole up to final size.

[JTR70]

Hey John, I am using a single point ground; a contact tip in each hand. Based on experience I'd have to agree with you, the distance doesn't seem to make a difference as that varies constantly as I go. What does make a difference is the "dwell" time and some times even that yields inconsistent results. Unless your spot welder is an industrial unit I wouldn't trust any of them! As you know well, the factory spots are tough and very resilient; even between two very rusty panels as they won't give up easily. While annoying during removal, they are still doing their job very well after all these years so a blessing at the same time. All the aftermarket spot welds I've run across give up very easily. RD's and Trevor's spot welds on their new panels are no comparison to the factory spots. All I've had to do is drill the center of the weld (leaving some shoulder of it) and with a quick hit of my hammer and chisel it will "click" apart with very little resistance. By contrast if you miss any bit of the original spot weld you'll usually end up tearing the metal in and around the remains of the spot as you try repeatedly to get it to break apart. The closest I've been able to replicate the bond of a factory Spot weld is with a MIG'd plug weld. Those are just as unpleasant and difficult to remove as a factory weld so I know the bond is as close as I can replicate. This why my panel spotter is strictly for visual effect and final presentation.
Thanks for saying so John, I appreciate that!!


Slight modification to the front beam adjusters:

Owner wants the ability to lower the front of the car a little more than the stock configuration will allow.
The original adjusters do have the potential of allowing a bit more upward rotation. By elongating the upper end of the adjuster hole in the tube the collar/block could be rotated and bottomed out against the adjuster bung for a maximum lowered stance. Anything further than this would require major cutting and reconfiguration of the adjusters.
To have any shot of getting tools on this grub bolt and locking nut in that new maxed out position in photo one this portion of the adjuster gusset will have to be removed.
Removing no more than I have to.
Lower portion of the gusset cut now giving a clear shot at the eventual bolt in the new maxed out position. As you can see the block is resting against the bung here so we'll only be opening up the slotted hole in the tube by just under the bolts shouldered width. Doesn't seem like much but once that movement is translated through the end of the control arms it should yield an additional 1-2 inches of lowered ride height over stock.
Opening up the top of this gusset for access next. Laying out my cut lines.

More on this next.

Thanks for looking!

Justin