Polo motor build for junkyard coupe 58367

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

You know Bill makes some valid points above. He is correct in saying your wonderful efforts so far, have not really strayed away from what Porsche I think, would have thought really fitted so well, to their 356 concept. Of course many years have passed by and you have an open choice of how you want to see it, but I too sort of favour a sense of originality to the 356 scene.

Maybe the problem is the fact I am getting older and tend to like old fashioned things too much. Bill's mention of flat belts so correct these days but do they fit in with that lovely fan shroud?

As all of your work is so much better than anything I have ever achieved on a 356, its never easy to write a comment which might not be appreciated but, I do see where Bill is coming from on this.

I bet though some younger guys will raise their eyebrows at my comments !! Its only when someone speaks up like Bill has, do you think carefully about the finished concept.( But its your car Justin to do exactly what you want to do on it.)

Roy

[Bill Sargent]

And because I had a few spare minutes I went to Jack Walther's Kustom Karrera photo page and pulled the attached photos.











The 692/0 motor he received in exchange for sending the original motor from Spyder 022 to Italy had the throttle linkage on the crank pulley side of the shroud, low near the case - as it would need to be in a spyder. I believe Jack worked with Rainer Cooney to obtain the throttle linkage parts that mount on the flywheel side of the shroud to work in a 356 configuration. Note my earlier note was incorrect in saying you should consider the linkage on the crank pulley side - I do not think it will work in a 356. The throttle cross bar on the 692 and 587 motors came later - together with a twin grill engine lid with no rain tray hanging down.

Plus with your faux narrow 60 degree distributor V drive, your motor will look like an early motor that originally had the can driven distributors and was later retrofitted with the 60 degree V drive.

Doing the throttle linkage "right" will really keep folks guessing, even those that know

[JTR70]

Bill, if you find the cross-bar and serpentine belt system a radical departure from " period factory" just wait until you get a load of the paint scheme I have in the works for this housing/ cooling tin before its all said and done.
Seriously though, I do appreciate all your input and those photos so thank you! While it is true I have obsessed in getting the details correct with the body itself; When it comes to the suspension and drivetrain on this build all bets are off. I'm not looking to replicate exactly what the factory did or what was available in the 50's and 60's. I've wanted custom or trick race parts from then and now. I'm sure you've seen the front suspension on this car, all current class 1600 off-road race car components, not exactly what was around in the 60's. As for this motor, the goal is not a "faux 547". I have no interest to keep people guessing as to weather this is the original engine to my car or not besides the chain boxes destroy that illusion. If I was looking to do that I'd be waiting in line for the New 547 stuff Joris Koning is developing. In truth my goal is exactly the opposite , when guys look into my engine bay I want little doubt left that this is anything but a highly modified hot rod motor. Subtle will not be a word used to describe the way its going to look, sound or perform. My finished desire here is a "meat mashing" polo engine which just so happens to have a 4-cam cooler retro fitted to it but has little else in common to a "correct" 4-cam motor for a '57 coupe. Though I will be replicating that "bazooka " crank case breather from some alloy tubing. Getting back to that lower style linkage, I'm certainly not going to rule it out and it would be very straight forward to fabricate it but I'm just waiting to find out what is actually going to work the easiest.
As for that spun extension cone/housing on the generator I don't personally care for the looks of it. Puts me in mind of a gal in need of Rhinoplasty. I prefer to leave the extension shaft exposed as it breaks up the line. I jumped the gun on that Narrow V-drive too as that will not be used. I'm going with individual coil packs on each head. Again Bill, I really appreciate the input and suggestions as always and I'd really like to please everyone but since that is an impossibility I'm going to have to please myself first.

Thank you Roy, I don't think age has a whole lot to do with it. I do have a streak of purist in me as it pertains to the welding, chassis, body and trim details but I am a hot rodder at my core so drivetrain originality is almost nil on my list of priorities. With my mindset I especially get a kick out of the cost of original Pre-A drivetrain components these days. Dressed split case engines for 25-30K or more, 1300CC P&C sets for 6K. I think... COOOOOOL... all 35 fire breathing HP in the end huh?
To each his own I suppose and it is historical preservation certainly but for me that belongs in a museum not under my deck lid. Thanks again you guys, really!
Justin

[Bill Sargent]

Yep - whatever you do you must keep yourself happy! I will await the results with great interest. One word of advice though - resist the temptation to drill lightening holes in the fan shroud......

[JTR70]

I was going to do just that right after I had the oil tank louvered.
Thanks again Bill!

4/24/16
Second template.

Next generation template. Cleaning up initial lines and ideas but still playing around with shapes and other ideas.

Long way to go but a step closer.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

You are correct Justin the cost of anything pre-A is mind blowing and correct in relation to the power output well... You have not made any mistakes so far and your car will for certain stand out in any collection of 356 cars. It will I think also perform better than any of the old 356 cars sitting alongside

I used to ride what were at the time fast British bikes, then a few years ago a friend had a very fast Ducati. You have to be taught how to even open the twist grip!! Open too fast and you are on your back!! But exciting to just hear that engine howl!! So I guess I am still thinking young at times. Just my bones know their age.

Things move on as they should, you are just lucky your 356 looks so perfect it will suit any modification regarding engine providing you can close that engine lid

Roy

[merbesfield]

I like this quote....

[Tony G]

Justin, nice to see all of the impressive progress, we will have to get together soon.

[JTR70]

Thank you Roy!

Whenever you're ready Tony and thanks!

5/5/16
Developing the internal veining plan ever so slowly.
redirecting my efforts from outer housing to internal directional veining to figure out the best way to get the most volume of air pointed back toward the exposed bank.

First thing was to decide on the best position for the lateral partition which would naturally sit closer to the center of the two banks but for my misaligned application its ending up about mid-intake port. As you can see with the fan mocked in position only the outer corner of this head is in direct flow of this forward half of the fan.

An initial dilemma of bending the partition backward to center was it began narrowing the opening for the rear half of the fan. Need more air back here not less.

I eventually settled on bending it forward and around the intake port to keep the back as clear as possible. The next thought was to install a scoop in the partition to rob the lion's share of flow from the forward impeller and channel it to the other side.

You can see here how the double impeller is divided right at this wall.

Again the trickiest part will be getting good flow way back here and around the eventual intake. Even contemplating the intake tubes perhaps having a foil shape or edge to direct air where needed.

The basic plan is to install a scoop that will grab a good portion of this direct flow. Shouldn't need a lot just to cool this sliver of forward fins on this head.

Again not a lot of surface area to keep cool up here. Most of the flow needs to end up on the other side of this wall. Initial crest shape cut profile marked here.

once I get a big hole and scoop cut into that wall most of the flow from both impellers will be directed back here where needed.

Began cutting the opening. While hard to cut on this beautiful piece it would have been even more tragic if it were an original housing.

initial cut spooned open which will eventually get very big here soon. Also a very crude representative scoop laid in position. A long way to go with a bunch of tweaks and changes yet to make but I least nailed down a basic outline. Doesn't look like much progress but there is several sessions spent just trying to figure the best path forward. More to come.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

5/14/16
Plan of attack changing with tin slowly coming into better focus.

Decided on removing the lateral partition. It was the right move as once it was out of the way the whole thing opened up with fresh possibilities.

Wide open for more directional vein shaping experiments.

Not at all set on a design here but I felt it was at least heading the right direction. Looking at it from this vantage it always felt very restrictive but again once the partition was out it immediately seemed better.

Lots of time spent playing around with various shapes and profiles. eventually a piece of tubing was added to represent the eventual intake runner.

Getting closer to my answer but lots more time needed yet.

Working on one aspect gets stale very quickly so I find it helpful to jump around to other sections. I was back to working on the new lower floor profile here. I still feel the need to open the housing up a bit more at that back wall so I'm kicking around the idea of trimming it up along that scribed in line. Not committed yet but again just exploring things.

After a bit of headway I got bored with that and went back to the outer later enclosure and thought about intake manifold reliefs and began playing with shapes for the openings.

Once I laid the cutout section in there it hit me, kill two birds and make the relief walls double as the directional veins. Exhaust tubing on the rear port closely represents the diameter of the eventual intake manifold that will be fabricated.

Just an idea I'm running with at the moment but I do like that it performs two jobs at once.

dialing the relief opening to my liking.

Heel dolly made for a nice radius turn shape.

Another mock up of the eventual closing walls. Puts me in mind of the old Frenched-in antenna treatment back in the day. Just about ready to commit to cutting out the forward relief opening. This is going to wipe out my wiz-bang flanged section I made initially but not choice but to make my mistakes as it evolves. Call it paying my dues I guess...

BTW the openings have a lean to them for a reason. This bank seems to offset just a bit more severely so the carb in turn would offset more compared to the other side if mounted straight up from the ports. I'm wanting to bring the carbs in line a bit more like a regular 4-cam so this intake will have a slight angle in it to soften the offset a bit. This relief shape anticipates for that.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

None of that is easy work. By going back and forth a number of times it makes it easier to see I think. Design is not easy to do when the importance of correct cooling is required.

Very interesting thread.

Roy

[Impi]

Hi Justin how about fabricating your manifolds and internal veining as a one piece structure. If you plan on running carbs there will be very cool manifolds due to the function of fuel evaporating which in turn will have the effect of cooling your cooling air but in turn will also prevent carb icing to some extent. Doing it this way also will steady the manifold and housing structure you might have to account for the engine growing when hot but i dont think it will be an issue

[Tony G]

Justin,
We definitely have to get together. After chatting with you and looking at what you are doing via your images, I have some pointers to facilitate your cooling design efforts.
Tony

[Nigel Cousins]

Hi Justin
Your making good progress, I've been away developing a new product for monitoring and protecting classic engines - GaugePilot. I realised early on that I would need something that would monitor air/fuel ratio, cylinder head and exhaust temps to be able to accurately test my Fauxcam cooling efficiency and I would need a lot of gauges.

As they say "from small acorns grow great oaks" I ended up designing, building and launching the product to market. It is based on the Halda Speedpilot design, a period clockwork computer, so looks right in a classic car. This weekend we have 4 cars running in the MilleMiglia with GaugePilot onboard. www.gaugepilot.uk

Picking up on your need for carb linkage details. I have drawings if you need them and some spare parts for the early linkage for coupe and speedsters.

Heres a nice reference shot from a freshly rebuilt engine by andy Prill here in the UK.



Best Nigel

[Meissen540]

Nigel, I checked out your Gauge Pilot. What a great product!!!

Tom