'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[John Pierce]

Thanks Justin. I noticed the misalignment of the M/C hole when you did your pedal bulkhead. Using Phil's measurements, my holes are right where they should be. Maybe Stoddard fixed the issue.

Phil: thanks again for the help! Your measurements jive with what is on my car for a floor flange height....even with all that scrap metal previously welded on! A very big relief to know where things go so I can move forward.

I'm still cleaning up the whole front end area, removing slag and will media blast it next. I'll then restore/rebuild the parking brake conduit and figure out where it needs to be located on the pedal bulkhead bump-out before installing the bump-out. It looks like a funky way to install it as I'll have to drill a good sized hole first so the conduit flanged ends can fit through then weld it in and close the hole at the same time. Also, there's a second hole above this conduit hole for some lines that I'll also drill before installation. It looks to be centered on the bump-out and has a flared edge. Can anyone tell me its diameter and height/location on the bump-out?

[Phil Planck]

John
That hole is for the rear brake line off of the m/c. Will try to get data today for you.



Phil

Update: The e brake hole is not in the center of this part but offset to the drivers side. Using a flexible ruler it looks like the center if the brake line hole is 2 1/8" above the center of the e brake hole. My original part has a step at the bottom, and the brake line hole center is 2 7/8" above that step. My brake line hole still has the rubber grommet in it and it did not want to come out easily, so hopefully someone else can give you the hole diameter. You could also order the grommet and make the hole to fit. Found an interesting coin while doing all of these measurements. Not sure why I did not see it before. Have posted on my Foamcar topic.

Phil

[John Pierce]

I've been very hesitant to proceed with installing the new floor flange and pedal bulkhead due to the lack of original landmarks and the wonky fitment of the bulkhead repair panel. Thank you all for the measurements provided as they were invaluable. I've mocked up a new longitudinal repair piece and floor flange and made sure everything was level. I cut the bulkhead panel to the correct size using the lower bend as a measuring point. But I couldn't figure out why the outward dip in the bulkhead panel would not sit flat on the floor flange. Well.....I think I've found the problem!

Roland's book states that there is an ~1/2" drop from the out edge of the front floor. I ordered a set of floor pans from RD, which arrived today, which provided some good measurements. The dip in the edge is dead on at 14 mm (a little more than 1/2"). When measuring the bulkhead repair panel's edge the dip is 24 mm...doh!! Another poorly manufactured reproduction piece. This is AFTER I had to shorten it as it was a good 5 mm too wide.

I think I'm now ready to proceed. First I'll take DG's advice and repair the longitudinal and floor flanges, as I'm now comfortable where they should sit. THEN I'll rebend the outer bulkhead flanges to sit correctly. What a PIA


Restoration Design's front floor panel. A nicely stamped piece.


The lateral drop on the floor pan measures 14 mm.


Pedal bulkhead repair panel.


The bulkhead flange measures 24 mm. This is 10 mm too high from where it should be. Nothing that a little reworking can't fix

[Phil Planck]

John
There's a dimension for that, you just did not ask

[JOP]

Great with the measurements of the pedal bulkhead.
I was given the piece in the back of the picture and what a piece of #%^^ really poorly made and I would be ashamed to trying to sell it to some one in need of one.
Do not know who has made these but it is an old piece.
The welds are bad and also the finish in the bent edges .... I will try finding a better picture of the backside.
Really good that there is an alternative for restoration projects to get one off the shelf
More parts available today that 10-20 years back with some of the special rust parts that are done to help out.
/ Per

[John Pierce]

Phil, you are too funny!!

Per, that looks original. I wish I had that to work with. The piece I bought is from Stoddards. The picture of the restoration design piece looks different in the bump-out area, but I don't know how the flange would fit. What's a little more cutting, bending and fitting?

[John Pierce]

It looks like Justin ran into the same issue when he replaced this area and had to shrink the metal. It looks like a common problem with this panel. I'll definitely have to remeasure the MC hole after installation.

[Phil Planck]

Geez, mine fit perfect:






But I cheated. Made my own and matched them to the Stoddard pan.

[John Pierce]

Phil, I have the piece memorized at this point and have been dreaming about it.....giving me nightmares! It's funny that the amount of time fixing the resto piece probably is about the same as making one from scratch. Grrrr......

Your piece has the right amount of up-bend in it. Nice job. I guess I really should have asked you for a measurement

[bbspdstr]

The fun begins/continues......in the top picture (of Justin's floor/bulkhead corner mismatch) the indicator of another little problem is evident. The bolt for the pedal cluster trial-fitting intruding into the raised round shape's edge in the front floor and that plain bolt head won't be there forever. It will be replaced by the "horseshoe" pedal support brace which will crush into that stamped floor detail...'cause it's pressed in the wrong place.....

On the 'nicer' 356s, with careful planning and a lot of muttering, I have had to cut those out within an oval shape that allowed a weld placement of the round shape where it 'belonged'.


Maybe just pop-riveting old stop signs and license plates under the bigger holes in the floors of rusty 356s as was done in the olden days....sigh....really wasn't such a bad idea. A couple of hours later, you were back tooling around in your 356 and NO ONE CARED ABOUT THE DETAILS......

Shoot, I can remember wearing out tires (even original X-Stops) on 356s BEFORE their shelf life came into question.

Jus' sayin'

[Phil Planck]

Bruce, John, Justin

Either I lucked out, or Bruce's email advice way back when paid off:




BTW I found out that epoxy primer is not compatible with Eastwoods rust encapsulator. The Eastwood product is the red/orange and the bubbly black is PPG epoxy primer. Not sure why I put the encapsulator on the bottom of a brand new floor pan, but one of these days I need to address this. Another reason I wish I had a rotisserie.

Phil

[JTR70]

It looks like Justin ran into the same issue when he replaced this area and had to shrink the metal. It looks like a common problem with this panel. I'll definitely have to remeasure the MC hole after installation.

That was a combination of the stamp on the bulkhead being a bit too strong in the corner and the embossment on the floor being too weak and shallow. The deciding factor was getting the inner shoulder to sit flush down against the chassis flange. The corners I figured could be chopped and channeled after that was established.


Once the floor was set I worked the welds toward the corner. I then used torch heat and ball ping hammer to stretch the floor down to the corner. After it was over there was a sliver of that bulkhead corner that needed a bit of shrinking before I could weld it up from the outside. Required a bit of give and take from both pieces to meet flush somewhere in the middle.
This is how I know the problem is mainly to do with the floors stamping

This is a Simonsen floor I used on this Speedster several years back. Notice how strong and defined that step detail is in this piece. The bulkhead repair section pictured I am 99% certain is the same one I used for the current project. The corner stands real proud and the MC hole was punched too low as well.

Unlike the current floor I had zero issues in the corners. They closed together beautifully.

Agree Bruce, the circular embossment is just a few MM's too far back. I bottomed out the front floor section forward trying to compensate for it to achieve the best average fit. As you can see above the lateral embossments are right up against flange as the channel begins to narrow here. Couldn't go any further forward than this.

A nice confirmation was seeing the horseshoe just beginning to encroach the back of the embossment on my original floor. When I go to install it a little torch heat will soften the shoulder to allow the bracket a flush fit. So I'll end up just a MM or two further in than this original one shows. You're right an old stop sign would be much less demanding to install.

Nothing more irritating than finding out later that your coverage's are not compatible Phil. Been down that road more times than I care to remember.
Best of luck John! I hope our input will help you negotiate some pitfalls with these repro parts. Justin

[bbspdstr]

Way back when NO repro floors were available, we made sections as needed and we 'quilted' them together, sound original and those of, as the Factory manuals calls it, "of local manufacture."

That round depression was made by two guys. One steadied the 5" shell casing (without the pointy explosive tip) and the big acetylene tank valve cover, centered over each other on the marked piece of metal. The other guy took one big careful whack with an 18lb hammer.

Viola.....correct placement of an almost-correct detail.


Here is a 356 ready for a really big half of a really big stop-sign. Should I put the reflective side up or down?



-Bruce

[JTR70]

Thanks Bruce, For being a S/R coupe its floor seems to be in remarkable condition, at least the back section anyway. BTW: how will you be able to slip the new forward floor pan section into place with the tunnel and rear pan in your way? Cut and install it in two pieces?

[bbspdstr]

"BTW: how will you be able to slip the new forward floor pan section into place with the tunnel and rear pan in your way? Cut and install it in two pieces?"

• First, I must secure a front floor half!
• Then, measure all areas more than once.
• Trim as necessary. (nice to have a big shear)
• Remember, it's getting a lower front bulkhead repair, too. Makes this much easier! It's also getting a new diagonal member. Room to work!
• Notch the overlapping corners or slice and bend out of the way, decided as we get to that point.
• Over-bend the floor under the tunnel. (nice to have a big brake, but I usually just stand on the floor over some 4x4s)
• After it's shoe-horned up, jack the floor to the tunnel and Tek-screw in place.
• Tek-screw the perimeter while pushing down the edge of the floor, beginning with the center of each side, like stretching a canvas on a frame for a painting or torquing a cylinder head or wheel lugs.
• OR, get frustrated and find a big stop sign..............

Not too long ago, a customer had us do a Cabriolet resto with many NOS parts he had collected for ~20 years, including a floor pan. Both front and rear were Factory welded together, so yes, that required a discreet lateral cut in the forward half to get it in 'correctly.' BTW, it was a much heavier gauge steel than today's repro versions.

-Bruce