Coupe into Speedster Conversion

[JTR70]

Thanks for the confirmation measurement you took Per and for putting it into a value I can understand.

With the front very close to being in its final position I got just over 26 inches with the front still needing to come down just a bit more before its all over. Close enough Thanks again.

11/18/16

Fitting new front fender braces. (about a week ago)

Since this is my first front end I went back and fourth on whether to go from fenders to nose or establish the nose first.

I eventually settled on the nose first then working backward.


As the nose fitment continued the need for additional locating anchor points for it grew. Now was the time to begin fitting and prepping the front braces.

Initial prep was to heel the sides over flat on the lower footing just as the OG braces where showing.


Tip now doubled over and ready to fit to the car.

Initial fitment issue with these braces from Dansk was they seems a touch too narrow and would not allow an easy fit under the bracket mount and into the hole of the trunk wall. At first I thought this was my mistake as I repaired this hole in the wall and could very well have been off by "that much".

But this side is factory and the problem was the same.

I thought about relocating the holes but the easiest fix was to cut the lower welds on the horn bracket mount allowing the bottom brace to relax down the needed distance.


That turned the trick for the time being anyway.

Right side set for square and tacked on. I would soon learn that I was getting way ahead of myself.

Braces tacked and ready to begin refitting the nose to see where it was at. All that mess coming up next.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[JTR70]

11/19/16
Nose mock ups with a headlight bucket... First signs of trouble.


Initial fitment with the nose seemed promising.

Tube peaked out almost at dead center on both light openings.


Mocked up the bucket from the inside and noticed I was heading into the same problem as Drew was experiencing earlier.

Though relatively centered the tube position forces the bucket to be way too far back. Once the bucket is mounted into the skin there is no way the conduit will line up with the opening at the bottom of the bucket. The simple fix is to move the brace forward to compensate but I'm shooting to keep it in the stock position for horn and stand-off clearance from the skin.

I wanted to know what was causing this discrepancy so after some comparison measurements against my original buckets pictured above it was clear; the original buckets are a full 1/2 inch deeper than these new ones from Dansk.

While they got the basic shape pretty nice these buckets just don't reach back far enough. Some give and take as well as some heavy modification to these brackets is going to be required to bridge this gap so off these brackets must come. This is where I got ahead of myself. To be able to determine just how much and what has to be done to them hinges on the buckets ultimate placement. I realized now was the time to get them mounted in the nose section. Just bumping my way along in the dark but eventually "I see". Prepping buckets for mounting next. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

Now those discrepancies in size to the factory originals as also Drew found must have been a real disappointment. To me trained as a press toolmaker it seems clear they used some close tooling to the original for the bucket that could be made to fit with modification but a straight forward remove a rusted part and re-fit with the new.

In these cases, did they mention the fact they are not direct replacements but would need alteration before final fitting?? Sure, items like this are not easy to make in low volume because perfect examples would be involve high tooling costs but it should be made very clear on that fact.

Looking at my originals below, the measurements would be easy to make, is it a case of what's a half inch or so ???





You are doing so well on this Justin many would throw in the towel !

Great thread.

Roy

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

I should have put above: ' but not a straight forward remove a rusted part'....

The word 'not ' is important !!

Roy

[JTR70]

Oops! Sorry about that guys I mistakenly put down a 1/2 inch last night I meant to say there was a 1/4 inch worth of difference.

I remeasured this afternoon in MM's this time. Got a depth of approximately 131MM on the repro.

The original came in at approximately 137mm.

This is the Original's outer flange that the base ruler is resting on. The reproduction's flange is approximately 2mm wider than this one so by the time I'm done grinding the new one down to spec. the depth measurement will change to about 129mm so there is about an 8mm or 1/4 inch discrepancy. Certainly not as bad as I had you believing it was but enough to cause trouble. Thanks for the confirmation pics Roy. Not a whole lot of room between the horn and the body aye? BTW: Love your drive with the black brick and moss covered joints... Cool!



11/20/16
Headlight bucket prep.
Adding 356A details to these new shells.

Need to close the twin forward holes and add a center drain tube in their stead. The lower lateral detents on the lip will also need to be finished out like the rest of this edge.

Normally I wouldn't bother but the shoulder they create on the outer surface will interfere with the units final fitment down into the holes.

Holes welded with new central drain tube. Detents smoothed out.


I'll weld the tube in after the buckets are seated in the nose.

The tip gets crimped. Another detail for later.

One more small hole to be added is for the turn signal leads to go through. Its positioned to the inside so this unit has been officially designated for the left side. One more to go...
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[Jack Staggs]

Yeah, that was a bit premature to fit the fender braces first. It's a busy place on the front end. You might want to take a measurement on how far the nose panel extends from the bottom lip to the spare tire well. I've seen a few that looked too blunted, and others that look too extended. Get that right first. Get a reasonable fit to the front bumper that you are using, before fitting fenders. Both will likely need work. Fit the headlight buckets with the headlights and gaskets that you are going to use in place. Allow a little extra for primer and paint. Often the headlight openings are the wrong egg shape for all this to fit correctly. The last thing to fit is the fender braces. Some slight movement of the panels can be made there, but keep tension as low as possible. Before welding the braces, fit the horns to allow clearance. They can be very close to the nose panel at times.
Oh, don't let the headlight buckets point in different directions. Lay a long 2x4 across them to check. There is usually a little outward facing difference, but 1/4" on each side is getting a bit far out.

[JTR70]

Definitely Jack, The bucket lip clearance away from the fender for the seal and paint was something I was warned about by my buddy here in town several years ago when I repaired the right side on my coupe. I heeded that warning. I can also remember Bruce Baker on the R suggesting a long straight edge across both buckets to check for square; that was also noted. This nose is being located for distance and attitude by measuring off the suspension points to sight markers on the skin from both my coupes. I then jockeyed this one for best average fit against those numbers all the while making sure it continues a smooth transition off the end of the hood. Its surprisingly close to the originals and its looking pretty close as it does it. Thanks Jack, timeless tips for sure...

Photo is where I'm at as of today (11/21/16) with the front located just about where I need it to be. With that I'm beginning to rough fit the fenders. I think its going to go a lot smoother than the rear did. Famous last words... Added some eyeballs to give a better idea how the front is shaping up.


11/21/16
Headlight bucket installment from last week.

Cleaned with plug weld holes; ready to install.

It was a very tight fit and took some convincing with a section of wood and a dead blow hammer.

Eventually drove it home. If I hadn't been through this before with all original parts the amount of force that was needed to get these in would have really concerned me. The originals were tight and so where these. Anyway got them in without distorting the area of the fender around the opening.

Very impressed with how well these two parts eventually fit together though. Certainly don't want to have to remove these for any reason. Can't see any need to... Thank god.

Getting ready to set screw the bucket into position and as Jack mentioned seal thickness is being taken into account.

Both buckets now in.

back to the fender braces... I'll eventually get this thread caught up and current.
Thanks for looking and Happy Thanks Giving to everyone!
Justin

[bbspdstr]

Late data:


29" or 740mm, original Speedster, original numbers matching lid, one owner numbers matching car with a very desirable history (for sale)






One Trevor nose and one Trevor-part modified at seal landing and gutter Porsche-supplied nose. Trevors openings were an easier fit for re-used original bucket, the HA!!! "Made in Germany" repro required quite a bit of "encouragement" for insertion of original recycled buckets. (Note metal drain tube, another cruel joke from Porsche when the pinched lower end clogs...but hey, it's "original.")

Still, similar 'issues' with fender supports fit, etc.

Good work Justin....I now follow your postings before I do my work. Please remind me to send you a royalty check!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Bruce
P.S. Always try to use original buckets and always fit with the headlights that will reside on the car when all finished, prior to paint.

[JTR70]

Bruce, Thanks for the confirmation measurement on that Speedster. BTW what is the asking price on that car? Helpful insights regarding the various New and OG headlight and bucket opening combos for sure. I held off on installing those drain tubes until after the buckets were in. No sense in making it harder than it already was. LOL, you want to send me an information royalty check on repairs you've done a hundred times over in the past? You'll learn nothing new here my friend. Thanks again!


11/27/16
Fender braces


With the buckets seated and the nose in approximate position this is the misalignment I was facing with bracket in old factory spot. Easiest thing is to of course move it forward but as Roy's underside photos showed the horns won't clear the body. I need to maintain that Horn mounts distance.

Fitment was at least consistently wrong from side to side showing me some symmetry.

Resisted but eventually came to the conclusion that my best bet would be to cut the braces completely apart then reassemble them to suit on the car.

One of the most important benefits is the ability to rotate the tube elbow to help compensate for this shortfall.

I'm also going to cheat this hole back a few mm's more to help soften that needed tube rotation.

My original shows a slight rotation forward so its all perfectly legal in my mind.

Bottom run is set at the factory distance.

This ensures the horn pedestal mount will remain at the correct distance away from the skin to allow for horn clearance. You can see how far the tube has yet to go to be aligned again.

That added kick in the base profile is not supposed to be there so I straightened it back out while I'm here.

Ready to begin attaching the nose to the base struts to locate and steady the front further.

Begin cutting out a pair of new tangs from some old 16 gauge templated off this original.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[JTR70]

11/28/16

Nose fitment continues with lateral anchor points.

New tangs cut and slotted

Gentle rolled corner replicated.

Lower brace section tacked into position with new tab set screwed into the skin for preliminary fitment.difference tying this in made.


The brace/bases are now set, any needed adjustments will be made by changing the position of tab where it attaches to the skin. What a

The additional anchors now in place allowed for fitment to move to the next level. Pretty good initial gap with the hood.

Though it did have a slight overbite at this point. More fine tuning required.

Along with leveling out that misalignment against the hood the next step was getting basic reference measurements from my original cars.

Would be sight measuring from points on the chassis to the skin to help dial in the correct distance and attitude or rake of the nose.
That up next. Thanks for looking!
Justin

[Scott B]

Very nicely done - tricky tricky - not a straight flat edge on the nose anywhere.

[JTR70]

Thanks a lot Scott!

11/29/16

Nose section set

Continued slight adjustments around the lid and at the lower brace sections were finally getting it close.

Cross measurements with my coupe from the front of the bump stop

To the lower leading cornered edge of the horn opening got me within a couple of MM's of difference.

That measurement also helped me determine if the panel was on square in relation to the frame because as Scott mentioned there's not a flat section on it.

Basic gap set with good transfer elevation off the hood all the while maintaining a lower measured distance away from my sight markers within MM's from the factory which help determine the correct rake ..... its as close as I'm ever going to get. The nose was now set.

Begin rough fitting the fenders with the now established nose.

Still remaining hopeful that this will go smoother than the rear did.





This is how I left it at the beginning of Thanks giving week before I left to visit family.

Begin rebuilding the rest of the brace to suit this car.
Thanks for stopping by!
Justin

[JTR70]

11/30/16
Finishing up the fender braces

Dug out my coupe's original horn assemblies for mock up.

Again a major benefit in rebuilding these to suit is the ability set the base bracket in place so the horn is centered in the opening. There is adjustment up or down but not laterally otherwise.


Centered in the opening here so I'm ready to tack that base in position.


Bracket now fully mocked up here with conduit slightly rotated forward so it now reaches up into the bucket. Also had to increase the kick in the downward section to compensate for the other changes I've made.

Only shortfall after all this is the conduit lead tilts slightly forward; its just going to have to be. Before its all over I do need to shorten it about a quarter inch more which will soften the look. I tested my flaring tool on the excess here to see how well it replicated what the factory did to protect the wires from chaffing on the edge; I think it'll turn the trick.

Modifications were slight but enough to keep the horn in the right spot while making up for the shortfall in the headlight bucket stamping.

Brace now tacked together. I'll finish up the welding after I remove the nose panel for a clear shot at it. Onto the right side.
Thanks for looking!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Well done Justin, It looks great.

Roy

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy!

12/1/16

Right fender brace

To get the horn position in the opening matched up with the left, the bracket base had to be moved outward a bit more than on the other side. The relief came after I looked at my original cars and found their position to be asymmetrical as well.

Right horn now matches the left in position in the opening.

More positive confirmation came as I measured off the horn to the leading cornered edge...

They only differ by a few MM's, of course this will all vary and change before its all welded up and complete but its at least starting out close.

Before dismounting the nose to weld up the braces I laid my straight edge across the buckets to check for alignment as both Jack and Bruce have suggested.

Pleasantly surprised to find that they both sit pretty square with one another save for the outer edge of the left side. As you can see its only out by about 2mm or so. Bruce has suggested they are all supposed to be a little "wall-eyed" (but never cross-eyed) so I think it should be fine.

Also have to take into account that the flange that the yard stick is resting on is not perfect. You can see here that the lip varies quite a bit as it makes its way down. (green arrow) I'll be following Drew's checklist in thinning this lip down to match the original which is thinner by at least a MM and more in some areas. We'll see how square they are after that's done but hopefully it won't change much.
Dismounting the nose and welding up the braces next. Thanks for looking.
Justin