Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Evolution of the 356A T1 & T2 How they differ

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Thanks once again Roy! I know what you mean; watching Bill Sargent set up his late T2 car with all the carrera dry-sump type systems is a perfect example of what is really involved.

    A small change in the mid to late 1957 T1 cars to the front turn signal lights which in turn changed the hole stampings in the body.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562241.JPG
Views:	121
Size:	78.7 KB
ID:	14435
    Here is a late 1956 T1 front turnsignal mount. Note the center hole for the socket and the two smaller mounting holes set at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions. The beehive light base mounted directly to the body and the chrome trim ring screws would then be oriented at the 9 and 3 o'clock positions when finished. The beehive tailights were identicle to the fronts including the knock-out holes in the body. This includes All earlier pre-A beehive cars as well.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	2010_0308frontindicator0004.JPG
Views:	150
Size:	50.5 KB
ID:	14436
    A change occured to the front signals in mid 1957 and most likely coincided with the intro of the teardrop tail lights. I believe it was the DOT that set a requirement that front signals be oriented at a more level approach. The directly mounted signals of the pre-A's angled upward. A chrome plated potmetal predistal was then added in mid 1957 and continued on through. The photo above is courtesy of Roy and details this new extension. However, Roys car must be very late '59 because his is showing a B/C style lense. All mid-57 and 58 ran the standard beehive light with the predistal.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562243.JPG
Views:	144
Size:	45.4 KB
ID:	14437
    Here is the resulting T2 modification made to accomidate the New pedistal. Compared to the first photo example above the the center hole is punched bigger to make way for the pedistals pot metal body and socket relief for the light base. The mounting holes are now punched in just opposite at the 9 and 3 O'clock positions. This was done so that once the pedistal was mounted to the body and the stock light base was mounted to the pedistal it off set the final chrome trim-ring screws back to the original 9 and 3 o'clock positions like on the earlier pre-A and T1 body mounted lights. This changed configuration will tell you exactly if you need a pedistal or not. Unfortunately for pre-A and early T1 owners all the NEW vendor replacement noses are all die stamped with the later T2 configuration and will need to be retrofitted. No big deal but just wanted you to be aware if you own an ealier car. More changes coming up. Thanks for reading this! Justin
    Justin Rio

    Comment


    • #32
      Justin,

      Interesting your comment about the lens for the front turn signal. My turn signal lens has been on the car since the 60's I always thought this 'wedge type' lens which you twist and turn was original. In the history records for my car going back to the early 60's no mention of a change. The wedge type lens for the 356A T2 late version is stated as NLA 631.004.01 in the stoddard book. The 356B clear lens is 631.411.01

      Now, I will check the number for sure on the lens and advise back. I think the housing for the 356B turn signal is quite different to my T2 version.

      I know the UK rules meant clear front signal lights maybe something is connected here to the supply. My car was finished in March 59 so not that late.

      I will report back, its got me interested

      Roy

      Comment


      • #33
        Hey Roy and Justin,
        I have really enjoyed following your T1 & T2 descriptions of the changes.
        Roy mentioned that his parking light/turn signals were put on in 1960.
        Here is a pic of my T5 1961 left front body during tear down and it also shows the attaching bolt holes at 3 and 9 o'clock positions as would be expected.

        Click image for larger version

Name:	12-093.LSidewDoorOnCar-LowerSkinNotOnYet.JPG
Views:	142
Size:	138.9 KB
ID:	14451

        My car originally had a clear twist off lens that I switched to the amber ones years ago. I found that some older MBs used the same lens.

        Click image for larger version

Name:	12-083.FrtwModel356Home.JPG
Views:	126
Size:	216.2 KB
ID:	14452
        Keep the discussion rolling guys!
        I really enjoy it!
        Cheers,
        Dick

        Comment


        • #34
          Justin and Dick,

          Okay guys did some detetective work and used the camera:

          1). The outrigger fender brace on my March 59 T2 has the bolt although it looks like a cap certainly its not hexangonal.

          2). The 59 T2 wedge front indicator is made by SWF and the number of the housing is as shown above in my photo.

          3). The lens is also made by SWF and has the number K12627 on the top and 2321 on the bottom see photo.

          4). Even the round rubber 'o' ring type gaskets are still original
          and the instruction with arrows for 'losen' to remove are clear to see.
          5). The housing I have is not shown in the stoddard book. There is a separate ending piece for both items they show which is not like mine.
          Its interesting to note they cannot supply nla.631.004.00 wedge bases for the T2 only NLA 631.007.00 which is not the same as mine.

          6) The 356B and C housings are also completely different to my type.

          I know from registry posts from some years ago the K12627 housings like mine are rare and actually quite valuable. I was not aware really the last T2 A cars had a very similar housing to the 356B so I presume for some reason the casting 12627 was superceded for the T2 late in its life and maybe kept for the T5.

          It all gets complicated but I am sure I think!! mine are original but I keep learning more and more every day on these pesky cars

          Roy


          Click image for larger version

Name:	resizebracket.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	34.1 KB
ID:	14456

          Click image for larger version

Name:	resizeblinkerlens1.jpg
Views:	123
Size:	29.9 KB
ID:	14457

          Click image for larger version

Name:	resizeblinker2.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	44.1 KB
ID:	14458

          Comment


          • #35
            Roy,
            You are a much better close up photographer than I am.
            Here is my original light assembly with a older replacement amber globe.


            Click image for larger version

Name:	A.LightAssbywAmberGlobe.JPG
Views:	120
Size:	196.9 KB
ID:	14469

            Then here is the assembly (front with out the globe and then the rear of the light assembly)

            Click image for larger version

Name:	C.FrontOfOriginalLightAssbly.JPG
Views:	117
Size:	204.4 KB
ID:	14470


            Click image for larger version

Name:	B.RearOfOrgLightAssembly.JPG
Views:	133
Size:	232.5 KB
ID:	14471

            My pics of the clear and amber globes do not show the markings, but I will mention what is on them.

            Click image for larger version

Name:	D.OriginalClrLightGlobe.JPG
Views:	117
Size:	162.0 KB
ID:	14472

            Click image for larger version

Name:	E.AmberGlobe.JPG
Views:	146
Size:	154.4 KB
ID:	14473

            The chrome light assembly has SWKF 13306 on it.

            The original clear globe has K13278 on it and the turn to twist markings are on both, the clear and amber, like yours do.

            The amber globe is marked K13384 and neither has any other numbers molded into them.

            Each globe also has IWF in the center.
            I just checked and of course my after market light assmeblys and globe repros from Stoddard that I got have NO MARKINGS!

            When I was checking them I spotted some 'dirt' that had collected on the outer edge near where the globe screws into the light assembly. That has been about 3 years or so since the were put on. I unscrewed the globes and promptly used some chrome cleaner to remove that stuff before corrosion set in and I'm then out purchasing new parking light assemblys-again!
            Cheers,
            Dick

            Comment


            • #36
              A bit more detective work on the above post I sent. I was looking at e-bay and an original 356B front turn signal lens is up for sale as NOS. Interesting for me, the part numbers of the lens is clearly shown. The numbers are SWF K13305 on the top of lens and 2323 on the bottom. For sale at $200- The same principle as mine a 'twist off version' and I guess would fit Dick's car perfectly. You will notice Dicks car has a split type chrome bezel 15mm? in from the lens mine does not have that. Also the legs of the lens seem to have a metal support fitted. I think mine are plain plastic and probably often cracked on removal.

              I am getting every day more and more like Dr. Sheldon Cooper off 'Big Bang theory' but thankfully I still fancy 'Penny'

              Roy

              Comment


              • #37
                Thanks Dick,

                You posted just as I did. Interesting you plastic hooks on the lens are clear too. Thanks for posting the housing number and those photos.

                Cheers

                Roy

                Comment


                • #38
                  Dick, thank you for the referrence shots of a later B/C unit. Its clear that the one's on Roy's are uniquely 356A and absolutely correct and original to his car. And yes, Roy your lights are very rare and quite valuable! I looked it up and here is what I found: (all the following info comes directly from Dr. Brett Johnsons 356 restorers guide to Authenticity Rev.2)

                  Pre-A and early T1 body mounted bases like mine were a dual pole unit which takes the double filament bulb and is both turn signal and running light. This was gone by the coupe 100 series chassis number. after that the pedistal was introduced and the light was backed down to a single pole unit. so turn signal only. The running light was moved up to the headlight assembly.
                  Starting with coupe 104090 the "twist on" SWF like Roy's were introduced. Also a single pole. Is yours a single pole Roy? When the 356B unit came out it went back to double pole. It is said that the units are a matched left to right pair and not generic as on the earlier versions. Again all chassis info is from brett Johnsons Authenticity guide. I'm learning too!!! Justin
                  Justin Rio

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Rear parcel shelf and carpeting changes from T1 to T2.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562257.JPG
Views:	124
Size:	55.9 KB
ID:	14561
                    This is my original parcel shelf in my Dec. of '56 T1. Its a piece with uniform strengthening ribs all across.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562254.JPG
Views:	144
Size:	69.3 KB
ID:	14562
                    Now lets skip ahead to 1959. Please excuse the pathetic condition of this example but its all that I have on hand at the moment. Basically the exact same part but the right side of it now has a large sqaure shaped embossment on top and the ribs on the verticle have been shortened to accomidate this change. The last detail are the portruding mount tabs. There should be one on the left corner for a total of three but it has been lost to time.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562255.JPG
Views:	106
Size:	73.5 KB
ID:	14563
                    Close up shot of this stamping change from earlier T1 panels. I am starting to think that this square relief is Knockout for an access door for the optional Eberspacher gas heater plumbing that would run under here. Again just a guess...

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562256.JPG
Views:	116
Size:	94.6 KB
ID:	14564
                    These mounting tabs are for the Male side of a snap that holds the carpet in place off of the back of the jumpset. They are on the tall side so they can still be reached with all the tarpaper and padding installed.I have found these tabs on the other 58 coupe but not sure how far back these go. Trevor do you have these tabs in your car?
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562259.JPG
Views:	142
Size:	95.2 KB
ID:	14565
                    A T2 jumpseat on the left and a T1 jumpseat on the right. Both are obviously still in thier factory original upholstry. This is how the back of your T1 jumpseat should be carpeted if it shows no mount tabs on the parcel shelf. There will a huge gap between the seatback and the shelf when its down. The later T2 carpet flap was designed to conceal this gap for better asthetics.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562262.JPG
Views:	134
Size:	111.1 KB
ID:	14566
                    Old carpet flap snaps with corrosponding tabs.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562263.JPG
Views:	127
Size:	118.1 KB
ID:	14567
                    recepticle side of the snap.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	3562261.JPG
Views:	116
Size:	105.4 KB
ID:	14568
                    If your building a shell those tabs will tell you exactly how the jumpseat should be recarpeted. Since my T1 does not have the tabs this is the correct version for mine. Thanks for reading this! Justin
                    Justin Rio

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Yes Justin,

                      My front indicator is a single pole bulb type.

                      Roy

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Thanks for the confirmation Roy!

                        Another small evolutionary change was the needle bearing cages for the front trailing arms.
                        Click image for larger version

Name:	3562264.JPG
Views:	132
Size:	95.7 KB
ID:	14652
                        1956 and early 1957 had a seperate pressed in bearing race within each tube end and twin needle bearing cages which came out individually. A change occured sometime in mid to late 1957 as Porsche went to this unitized bearing cartridge.

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	3562265.JPG
Views:	128
Size:	72.0 KB
ID:	14653
                        sample control arm is from '56. Early bearing style installed
                        Click image for larger version

Name:	3562266.JPG
Views:	132
Size:	82.7 KB
ID:	14654
                        Later bearing unit installed. As you can see the rest remained the same and were interchangable.
                        Click image for larger version

Name:	3562274.JPG
Views:	107
Size:	58.2 KB
ID:	14655
                        May 1957 parts catalog depicting this new one piece cartridge.(item #2)I believe this item also remained unchanged through productions end in 1965. Much more to come! Thanks for stopping by! Justin
                        Justin Rio

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The addition of a reinforcing strip on the rear floor bulkhead on T2.
                          Click image for larger version

Name:	carrera1125.JPG
Views:	129
Size:	71.1 KB
ID:	14757
                          Another addition on this '59 chassis and not found on my early T1 is this extra reinforcing strip on the lower corner of the rear floor bulkhead. Its spot welded right on top and seam welded on the ends. Its 100% factory and not a later attempt at rust repair. My only guess is it was added to reinforce the Eyelets for the optional lap belt. Its outlined in green here.
                          Click image for larger version

Name:	carrera1123.JPG
Views:	108
Size:	69.1 KB
ID:	14758
                          A closer look reveals its an after thought however its installed with spot-welds and has all the hallmarks of being done at the factory.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	carrera540.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	60.6 KB
ID:	14759
                          Early T1 chassis with original floor and bulkheads showing no signs of this strip. How early was it introduced? have to check some cars to find out. Thanks for reading this! Justin
                          Justin Rio

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hey Justin,

                            On mine the parcel shelf has the square on the passenger side.

                            For the reinforcing strip under the back seat, mine does NOT have that. So maybe a true T2 addition.
                            trevorcgates@gmail.com
                            Engine # P66909... are you out there
                            Fun 356 events in SoCal = http://356club.org/

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Thanks Trevor! Do you have those 3 tabs for the carpet as well? Yes, the strip maybe a T2 thing only; I'll have to check that '58 for it when I get a chance. It may very well be a '59 thing only??? Justin
                              Justin Rio

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                My 57 speedster is an early beehive and has that small rectangular spot. What does it mean?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X