valve spring retainers

[badsix]

Jack, i'm having trouble getting pictures on this forum anyway here's a little info on the heads.
the only numbers I find on them is 101/5 this is cast in the rocker area.
they have 2 studs and 1 long manifold bolt. also oval intake ports.
no triangle wedges cast into the rocker area.
sparkplug holes have helicoils.
they have brass intake seats.
the valve spring pockets have shims and the new springs fit as they should they are the same OD as the 2 piece springs.
the retainers I have are steel and are of the flat design 2 of them have been ground in the center to make the small center spring fit the retainer and are a different retainer flat style
Jay D.

[Jack Staggs]

Jay, the easiest way to post multiple pictures on this site is to only post a single picture on your first attempt. Verify that it worked, then by EDIT, ad another pic. Check, then add another, then add another, then add another, then ...ad nauseam.
After a few pics, start another post, and also show pics of your heads from multiple angles, seats, valves... well, everything. You are well lost in the woods with Hansel & Gretel at this point.
I am very interested to know how you determined compression ratio in light of this new information, but we will get to that once again, depending on your replies. At the very least, your heads will need more work.

[jacques]

Hi Jay
i would defer to Jack but hi mileage heads with brass/copper seats should have the seats replaced since they tend to fall out.
j

[Jack Staggs]

My thoughts exactly, Jacques.

[badsix]

[badsix]

more to come
Jay D.

[Don C]

What's the deal with the heat discoloration on the intake valves?

[badsix]

don't know that's the way they came new, maybe a heat treatment ?
Jay D.

[bbspdstr]

"I just want to get these heads together as easily as possible."
Don't we all.
Hell, the head on our body is the first to be gotten together and sometimes that ain't so easy.

I was tutored as an apprentice in a Porsche-only shop in the '60s before and after my military service. IF I read all the manuals and still didn't understand or "do it correctly" in both arenas, I was shown..... as guilt was induced....but not allowed to fail. Why not the same on these forums?

I have posted many times on the Registry forum and prior on the Talk List and even the Samba that first, the Books are needed, read, and THEN, if something is not clear after reading, ask for assistance. Better starting point, but not as "easy."

Those who have learned, usually the hard way (as above), are giving a LOT of lee-way for those who do not know as much...YET. It is patience needed in both directions, but it is inherent in the newbie to at least TRY to read a f'in BOOK....even like Clymer or Elfrink offered.... BEFORE asking for "free advice."

Done well, a teacher may learn something from a student, but the teacher/student pecking order is never changed while the learning goes forward until it's about equal.

Your heads are a menage'a different parts...no wonder there is such a 'problem.' Get Stellite seats, eventually set 'correct' springs (singles)(not Chevy) at 41mm after asking nicely and someone will likely offer you whichever keepers and retainers you wind up needing. I gave all my trays and racks of bins of those parts to Eric Wills, but I would (offer) if I still had all that collected "stuff".....but whoever posted that you either tied the hands of the machinist who did the heads or they didn't know squat about 356 heads....and either way, you should find someone else....that was good info.

Good luck with the unraveling,
Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Jay, take a measurement between the spring perch on the head to the back side of the retainer, with the small springs that you have on in your pics, with NO shims in place. As Jacques said, you need 41mm on the intake and 40mm on the exhaust installed spring height for 6k redline, (lower redline engines can be a bit taller), but you always need at least one shim in place. Factory shims come in a couple different sizes, 1/2mm being thinnest. I'll bet that your numbers are going to be quite close to ideal with those old flat keepers. I sometimes fit them when heads need a big stack under the spring. Let us know the numbers you come up with.
PS: I would not install a head that did not have steel seats.

[Jack Staggs]

Well said Bruce. I was typing when you posted. I too, "just want to get these (fill in the blank) together as easily as possible". As though someone would say "I don't care how long it takes, or how much it costs." Really???
Advice to anyone in general:
Folks, think, or at least try to think, of the ridiculous redundant statements that you have heard while working in your field of expertise, if you have one. "I don't want my stock to go down" "I want this pain to go away". " Just make my roof stop leaking right now" "why can't this get done today" etc, etc. Well, just take a pill. That's what we were told in the '60's when these cars were new.
I have one: "Why ask a question of a consummate expert in his field, and then argue/dismiss the answer when it is not the you wanted?" Oh yeah, because you are SMART in YOUR field... Wonderful. I don't know how to fix a washing machine on my own.
Fucking incredible (sorry Justin, delete if needed).
I have been tossed off of the 356 registry forum because I am unwilling to pay $XX for the privilege of giving my advice from my 50 years of experience away for free to their membership, even after I gave permission to publish multiple technical articles that I have written, again for free. My reward? A single magazine each time. Huh.
I am routinely dismissed on the late Dave Hillman's 912bbs by folks that don't hear what they want from me, and go off on a fools errand, following the advice of those that asked remedial questions less a year ago.
Good understandable direction that is error free can take a very long time, even for a few paragraphs. Anyone that has attempted to do so will acknowledge the challenge.
The internet is a vast wasteland of misinformation, with some exceptions, IMHO.
Do I sound a little bitter? Let's see if my uninformed suggestions will fly on the forums that cater to some of your lengthy careers in your chosen field.

[roy mawbey]

Jack, take it from me, I read I reckon every one of your posts!! They are always to the point and useful. I agree with Bruce the workshop books need to be read and then re-read when you get a problem. I agree with you Jack the input you put into the registry like Bruce also, was so useful to people like me, who never take their cars anywhere but their own garage to do work.

Forums are as good as the technical advice they offer. The advice is from people prepared to offer their experience for free. Likewise any forum organisers should have real respect for those who really know 356 inside and out.

That's why this forum runs so well, Justin understands that fact so well and he deserves continued respect, for making it such a friendly place to visit. I used to visit the registry even after that situation, but for the past year never bothered. This, the Samba, and DDK are enough for me.

This thread though is an interesting one,never heard of 'stellite ' valve seats Bruce, but do understand its a very hard material. My 59 heads still have the original seats. I believe?? from 1960 they ran hardened steel but were before then bronze? In 1965 my engine had its last strip down and from the AFN ( Porsche UK) invoice every major item was changed but not the seats. It runs fine seems to have no valve regression just hope it continues that way.

Hope he finally sorts out the springs, valves etc to make it all work.

Roy

Roy

[jacques]

Jack you are one of my heroes your service to the community is exemplary.
the big reason I post on the forum occasionally is your absence and sadly the absence of Alain of the stable and Jerry McCarthy passing. the majority of the current posting may be well intentioned but based on regurgitating questionable information and having little practical experience. Thank you for your selfless help
j

[badsix]

here's the info Jack wanted
exh. valve installed height is 42mm
int. valve installed height is 41mm
spring pressure is apr. 87lbs @ 42mm
spring pressure is apr. 90lbs @ 41mm
this is with the flat retainers no shims. now I assume that by flat retainers your talking about the one in my picture that have been ground on. as the other one won't fit the springs. i'm going to post some better pics. of the retianers

the problem is that the springs don't fit the retainers. that is the majority of the ones I have the small step on the underside of the retainer is to large. spring measures 22.3MM ID the dia. of the step on the retainer is 22.9. it looks to me the wire size is slightly larger on the new valves
i'm in agreement with you guys about the bronze seats i'm going to call Walt at CI tomorrow about changing them.
thanks Jay D.

[badsix]

the one on the left fits correctly and I assume that's the flat one your talking about being the flat one. that's the one someone ground on so the small inner spring would fit on the 2 spring, springs
Jay D.