valve spring retainers

[badsix]

mostly I have my machinist do the heads. he builds sprit car and late model stock car engines and has been in the business a long time. so I trust him and I've never had a problem with anything plus he's a real nice guy. as said before I didn't have the spring available when I had the 356 heads worked on. so I wanted to do the springs myself as a learning experience, little did I know I would have all this problem with retainers. I really thought I could get on one of the forums and ask what springs and retainers do people with 356 A's use. i'm sure there has to be other people that have done this before. it just looks like the retainers the deep V ones that are pictured from Stoddard would let the installed height be more than the 41mm that I have. so shims would be necessary, lots of them maybe, that's not right. I don't know I don't have a deep V retainer. i'm thinking about ordering one to see how it fits
Jay D.

[jacques]

Jay
I feel your pain. I have been in this Hobby business for over 40 years when we were doing a considerable no of engines we would even do the machine shop work. i don't recall ever seeing a dual spring original set of heads to rebuild. if the odd ones came up we would usually upgrade all the way up to 912 heads. I was so frustrated lately trying to find the late A B style retainers i had them made in Titanium i still can't find enough keepers to use them. Also in frustration i had 40mm S-90 intake valves made to use the 3 groove keeper/retainer since using that bigger valve in C/SC 912 heads required those keepers and retainers. I can sell the TI retainers at an attractive price compared to Stoddard new ones but if i could find the steel ones i must have i would and other people might give them to you.
j

[badsix]

i'v been trying to talk to Walt at CI for the last few days but no answer. I'm going to shoot him an email to night. I think I might just send the heads to him and see what he can do. I would like to change the brass seats out for sure. so J what would you have to have for the titanium retainers, and would they work with my single springs and keepers.
Thanks Jay D.

[bbspdstr]

Jay, I have not been building engines for a couple of years so I haven't done much business lately with Walt but we do stay in touch.

What you describe is true for those of us who have known Walt for decades. He is really GOOD but due to this, in demand. As far as I know, Walt still does the heads himself, responds better by email than by phone and your heads will just "get in line."

The best is not cheap or quick, but Walt knows his products and can make great heads out of crap. That said, I'd ask his opinion on what you have. It may be that better later heads, per Jacques, are the better starting point, maybe less expensive overall....OR you may just like the challenge. Still, it's all up to you....but I'd get Walt's expert opinion and maybe an estimate on doing what you want after he sees your starting point(s).

Be aware; Walt doesn't gamble on used parts. I have bags upon plastic bags of springs, valves and other replaced parts sent back by Walt. Too good to throw away, not good enough for Walt to reuse.

I, for one, have always gotten machine work back from Walt that was too nice, too good looking to put in an engine.....I just want to hang it on a wall as art. However, that's not what we spend the money for.

Good luck with whatever you decide,
Bruce

[badsix]

THANKS, I've talked to Walt on the phone before when he did my pistons. and yes a real stand up guy that will do his best for you. i'm sure he's probably going a 100 mph. i'm sending an email and i'm in no hurry.
Jay D.

[badsix]

I've been setting in my office looking at spring and retainers today and I've come up with an idea. the raised area on the underside of my retainers is only .5 MM larger than the id of my springs. i'm thinking about either running a small drum sander lightly around the id of my spring until it fits. that's only .25 off the circumference of the very top edge of the spring. or I could make a fixture to hold the retainer and put it in my lathe and turn the underside the .25MM. sanding the spring would be much easer.what do you think, kinda back yard.
Jay D.

[Jack Staggs]

I've been setting in my office looking at spring and retainers today and I've come up with an idea. the raised area on the underside of my retainers is only .5 MM larger than the id of my springs. i'm thinking about... running a small drum sander lightly around the id of my spring until it fits. that's only .25 off the circumference of the very top edge of the spring... sanding the spring would be much easer

and a very easy way to have a disasterous failure. From reading your posts, it now appears to me that you have never set up spring rates/heights. Perhaps you have heard of the term "blueprinted and balanced" in engine building. Some folks make a big deal over this, particulary the American muscle types, but EVERY 616 engine from Porsche came that way from the factory. That's why they give specifications for everything in the repair literature. You may want to read up. I'll bet that the 2 odd retainers that fit your new springs are C/912 type with the wrong wedge angle for earlier valves. Have you checked?
BTW, what is your professional field of expertise?

[bbspdstr]

One thing for Justin, probably.

When I opened this thread just now, Jack's quote of Jay's prior post was just a white rectangular box but Jack's part of the post was clear.

This has been going on for a while, so I found my end-around to be to highlight the part to be quoted, copy and then past on my posting, using the toolbar, changing the color of the part I put in quotation marks.

It may be that I usually use Mozilla-Firefox to access ABCGT. I'll have to see if Chrome is any different.

Bruce (who almost scanned copies of shop manual pages for this thread but ....... I'm not yet retired.)

[jacques]

Hi Jay
those Ti retainers are available thru any of my wholesale customers. i don't do retail. you will have to have them inquire. Jack and Walt are 2 of my vendors.
j

[badsix]

excellent, thanks Jay D.

[badsix]

I've been setting in my office looking at spring and retainers today and I've come up with an idea. the raised area on the underside of my retainers is only .5 MM larger than the id of my springs. i'm thinking about... running a small drum sander lightly around the id of my spring until it fits. that's only .25 off the circumference of the very top edge of the spring... sanding the spring would be much easer

and a very easy way to have a disasterous failure. From reading your posts, it now appears to me that you have never set up spring rates/heights. Perhaps you have heard of the term "blueprinted and balanced" in engine building. Some folks make a big deal over this, particulary the American muscle types, but EVERY 616 engine from Porsche came that way from the factory. That's why they give specifications for everything in the repair literature. You may want to read up. I'll bet that the 2 odd retainers that fit your new springs are C/912 type with the wrong wedge angle for earlier valves. Have you checked?
BTW, what is your professional field of expertise?

Well I can't see taking .25MM from the very top inside edge of the first coil on the spring is going to hurt anything. .25 is about the thickness of the average strand of a human hair. and yes you are right the 2 oddball retainers I have are the 912s. I had an idea that there could be a difference in keeper and retainer relationships, THATS why I kept asking. and no I have never set spring rates/heights always had my machinist do my heads. i'm a DIY guy and thought I would do these with a little help from the forum people they are usually a nice group of people and very helpful. anyway for your last question I've worked in lumber mills, logging, heavy equipment operator, steel fabricator, and my last 30 years as a parts person and some mechanic work EMD's for a large ocean going tug boat co. now i'm a sex expert! i hope this answered your question.
Jay D.

[roy mawbey]

Jay,

Maybe everyone living in your town has very thick hair! The average hair diameter is 0.060mm ( 60 microns ) your 0.25mm value is 250 microns

I like reading this thread, its an interesting one.

Roy

[badsix]

Roy, its cold here! anyway .25MM isn't very much.
Jay D.

[bbspdstr]

I say in jest..who here hasn't "measured" by reference to a "CH" or an "RCH"?

The point is that I have run some terribly cobbled-together engines in my own 356s because I didn't have the ideal combo of time, money and early-on, knowledge. Never had a crank break, either...usually just noisy. Helps to be lucky.

Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Jay, that's quite a diverse resume. I had to look up EMD to learn that stands for "electromotive diesel". I also looked up the requirements to be a "Sex Expert", commonly referred to as a Sex Therapist. A Masters degree + 2 years, or a Doctorate + 1 year! That's quite an accomplishment.

Anyways, grinding on valve springs is a no-no. It is a sure way to develop stress risers. Stress risers from even the TINIEST spot of visible rust on a valve spring can cause failure. Valve spring are among the highest stressed parts on a ICE. When they break while the engine is running, valves can:

damage the piston from contact;

snap the head of the valve off, and allow it to fall in to the combustion chamber (read about dropped valves);

allow the pushrod to disengage from the rocker arm cup. This fun scenario can bend the pushrod, puncture the pushrod tube, bend the rocker arm, snap the mushroom head of the lifter off, snap the cam, and damage the lifter bore of the case;

other possibilities could include bent connecting rods, crankshaft fractures, align bore/split line damage, or exit holes in various places. Seem a bit far fetched? I've seen all of these disasters first hand, most of them on multiple occasions.

You say "I had an idea that there could be a difference in retainer to keeper relationships, THATS why I kept asking."
Didn't I answer that question? I don't know why this is coming up again. Perhaps my explanation was unclear. I apologize, if so.

It appears to me that deep V retainers that you keep asking about will result in a very large stack of shims to bring each spring height in to factory spec (like you well suspected) in your heads current condition. If you want to "mix and match" retainers, I suggest using 4 alike for the intake, and 4 alike for the exhaust, all within keeper/retainer angle spec.