valve spring retainers

[Jack Staggs]

[quote="jacques" post=38612]Jack you are one of my heroes your service to the community is exemplary.
the big reason I post on the forum occasionally is your absence and sadly the absence of Alain of the stable and Jerry McCarthy passing. the majority of the current posting may be well intentioned but based on regurgitating questionable information and having little practical experience. Thank you for your selfless help
j[/quote[quote="jacques" post=38612]



Thank you for the kind words. The 356 community at large has supported me all these decades, and I try to give back in my own ways. I would like to share my expertise and lengthy experience on the 356 Registry. I am willing to share for free, but I want be able to share for free.
It's humbling to me to be spoken of so highly by one of MY heroes.
Few people may know of your tireless efforts to supply obsolete/expensive parts at very reasonable prices, not to mention sharing your technical info, often in ways that I do not understand...

[bbspdstr]

Please indulge me one last shot at philosophy on this thread and not valve keepers.

I just saw the latest Registry today. More old-timers passing. I got good teaching and friendship from Bill Jones from the time we met in '69 until the last time I visited with him in San Antonio 2 years ago. It was not all Porsches or Indy cars or USAC Midgets, but life itself. About being a good role model by example, by sharing knowledge and respect....and enjoying "all of the above."

I found a handwritten letter from Bill while "downsizing" boxes and boxes of collected "stuff" this past weekend. He was thanking ME for sending some parts needed by him for his own exemplary Porsches. Oddly, I sent them just because I wanted to thank HIM for all he had done for me! What a true gentleman he was. It was a supreme honor to know him.

My point is that anyone who cares about the cars cares about sharing information about the cars with others. I know I will eventually pass on like my mentors and heros and it saddens me that my accumulated knowledge from them over more than a half century may not be passed on again as it was to me. Knowledge can't be forced on people, sure, but when it's asked....let's get started!

For a great current example of sharing info, go to "Heidi and Franny's Garage" on Youtube! They are so nice, so creative and I am very proud to call them friends.

So, I am finished with another "passing the torch" diatribe. Justin has graciously provided the vehicle, it's on us to drive it carefully.

Thanks for reading, back to the 'heads' of the class.
Bruce

[Phil Planck]

I have not read this thread until today, as I have a hard enough time retaining what I need to know. But, saw Bruce's name so decided to check it out, just as when I see Jack's name. You 2, along with a few others have made it possible for many of us to avoid big mistakes in our 356 adventures. For that, a BIG thank you. I was and am still opposed to the R policy of having to be a paying member to post. I also apologize for those of us who ask, and then argue, only because it discourages expert input. Please stay with us. Already apparently lost Jack on the 912bbs, which I just discovered today. Was going to do a few 912 projects before resuming work on Foam Car, but since Bruce and Jack are here, will defer those and start back on Foam Car.

Phil

[Jack Staggs]

Jay, 356 used a number of different types of retainers over the years. I consider both of the ones you have to be 2 examples of the several different flat types . Deep V retainers of one sub type for single groovy valves (there are other V types!) are available from Stoddard. Look them up for A/B heads, and post pics of those along with the ones you have for comparison so that others in your situation can learn. There are several other retainer issues. We look forward to your reply.
PS: Funny how my guess that your old retainers would give a nearly perfect spring height with no shims on your head. How did I know that?

[Craig Richter]

Jack, Maybe we can get Trevor to do a little photo essay on valve spring retainers. By the time we line up all the single spring, double spring, steel, aluminum, titanium, PreA, A, B... heck, that would be a bunch of pictures! Only problem would be to find free examples of all, but I know they're in a box "back there" somewhere...

[bbspdstr]

Craig, Jack, Jacques and Jay.....and Roy and Phil, et al.....

I posted that I would donate any and all needed odd-ball parts IF I still had it/them. Eric Wills now has all that "stuff" but I can pry anything loose if I ask. I like the photo idea for a general reference and resource. Maybe Trevor would be willing and if so, he would do a great job.

(BTW, Eric and his dad Ray were mentioned in the latest R-tag in the "Last One" article about Bill Lightfoot's C-2.)

The photo-inventory of all the different parts for valves and valves themselves would be impressive. Moreso than one I did for the various fuel connection banjo bolts. I did that for a reference for the reproduction suppliers to show theirs and all the originals...and the "occasional differences."

Another source for engine machine work and parts is Walt Watson in CA. Here is his site's parts page and that will get you to the rest of his simple, modest site (I'd hope) to see what it's like in Bodfish, CA.

http://competitioneng.com/NP356-912.htm

Regards to all,
Bruce

[badsix]

http://www.stoddard.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/l/nla-105-421-01-pic2_copy.jpg

http://www.stoddard.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/1/616-105-422-00lg_copy.jpg

the first one from Stoddard, they say 356 A/B with single spring. but it looks like the deep recess for the keepers would effect the installed height.

the second ones looks like the ones I have and fit as they should. the installed height is correct, thanks to Jack. and I do wonder how he would know that. EXPERIANCE MAYBE
Jay D.

[badsix]

So I have another question that is probably only available in the minds of some older Porsche mechanics. I know there are 1 groove, 2 groove and no groove keepers. are all these keepers the same size on the OD of the keeper and angle of the keeper. so one retainer could fit any valve with any of the keepers. like an A retainer could fit an SC OR 912 valve, one having no grooves and one having two or three. just something rolling around in my mind.
thanks Jay D.

[Jack Staggs]

Yeah that second one looks good hey? A winner! No. Problem with that one is that it can only be used with 3 groovy C/912 valves and keepers. Huh? Seems the factory boys changed wedge angle/ pitch of the C/912 keeper/retainer a few degrees different than single groovy heads used on all earlier heads. Can't mix and match, if you want to rock(er) on! Peace love groovy

[Jack Staggs]

So I have another question that is probably only available in the minds of some older Porsche mechanics. I know there are 1 groove, 2 groove and no groove keepers. are all these keepers the same size on the OD of the keeper and angle of the keeper. so one retainer could fit any valve with any of the keepers. like an A retainer could fit an SC OR 912 valve, one having no grooves and one having two or three. just something rolling around in my mind.
thanks Jay D.

Go back to Stoddard and read carefully the description of the deep V retainer. Then read the description of the keepers for C/912 valves, and count the grooves. How many grooves on each one? I am baffled as to how a "no groove" keeper could retain anything.

[Jack Staggs]

the first one from Stoddard, they say 356 A/B with single spring. but it looks like the deep recess for the keepers would effect the installed height.

Of course it would. In a previous post, you were worried that the new springs were too tall by 6mm. They are not. The issue remains on how to deal with getting these springs on your heads "in the easiest way possible", bogus seats excluded. No shit? Not so easy all of the sudden on these ancient engines, huh? We can stop any time you are bored.

[bbspdstr]

"We can stop any time you are bored."

But then we'd have to actually WORK with this stuff without this type of challenge breaking our own boredom, eh?

Bruce (who should be working right now!)

[badsix]

I was referring to the valves in my A engine. there are no grooves the keepers are smooth no grooves. the valve stem is just notched out for the keepers to wedge into.so I called that a no groove maybe right or maybe wrong just depends on terminology I suppose.
Jay D.

[badsix]

http://www.stoddard.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/l/nla-105-421-01-pic2_copy.jpg

So this is what Stoddard sells for 356 A and B engines looks like these are the ones I need. just by looking at the picture one would think they would increase the installed height.
Jay D.

[Jack Staggs]

All good observations. How do you normally adjust installed spring heights on heads that you have worked on?