Carrera book comments and questions

[Steve Heinrichs]

Andrew, I am saying that 550-05 was in Brazil then.

So, as noted, we are now reviewing all the races we have attributed to 550-07, including the on you refer to.

I'm sure we agree it was not 09 or 10-13 as well.

Steve

[Steve Heinrichs]

Let's see if Anrew and I can continue to keep the recent love fest going.

As noted, we're moving to settling down the 550-07 races in Europe.

1) I think no one believes that 550-07 went to S.A. ---early, middle or late.

2) I beieve that 550-07, beginning with 12 Heyeres with her in Start Nr. 56, was essentially 550-07 (with the 0043 fix). Call is what one will (we: 550-07; Andrew 550-0043), it is the car we have attributed to 550-07 until the end of the life of Annie (Rheims) and the Blendl rebuild.


My point it that we think the last six races are with the new "body", etc. but that the car is called 550-07 by Porsche. The timing comports with when Annie's mother brought in the car and the fact that these races had a hinged back.

Let's not re-live 550-07/550-0043 stuff again, but, rather, slowly move into the fixed vs. hinged issue which causes the "three car" idea.

Then, we are left with seven races and perhaps five "tests", etc.

More next week as this is considered.

Steve Heinrichs

[Type550]

Hi Steve,

happy to agree with all these conclusions so far...

Andrew

[Rickie]

Where is this car now, and who is its current custodian?

[Keith Seume]

Hello Everyone,

Steve Heinrichs has asked me to provide information on the Elva Porsche cars included in the book.

After reviewing new and additional information and material from an Elva-Porsche aficionado, we will make the following changes to the book and database:

1. Ernie Erickson raced an Elva-Porsche Special with 718 motor and Elva body, chassis nr. 70/021.
2. We will add a new race:
26-28 December 1963 Brands Hatch Boxing Day Race
Chassis Type, Elva Porsche Mark VII
Chassis Nr., 70/025
Pilot, Mike Beckwith

Sorry to resurrect this post from long ago, but I am writing a piece for Classic Porsche magazine, which I edit, about 70/025 which is now in the Protoyp Museum, Hamburg.
I was wondering where the above information came from. The reason I ask is that I believe it is incorrect. Former owner Mike Knebel writes in his sales notes (of which I have a copy) that chassis 70/025 was shipped out to Haas and Schmidt in Chicago on August 21st, 1963 by Pan Am (air bill 0263301322). I would be surprised if the car was shipped back to the UK for a mere club race at Brands Hatch in December and driven by a relatively unknown British driver. The entry list for that event shows Beckwith driving a BMW-engined Elva, not an Elva-Porsche. (EDIT - just discovered Beckwith did drive an Elva-Porsche, but it was apparently the works 'hack', with an upright fan - not 70/025)
Or am I missing something? If anyone can confirm this either way, can you contact me immediately: classicporsche@chpltd.com
Also, in case I can't get hold of Bob (he's hard to track down at times!), can anyone fill in th ownership gap between Haas/Schmidt and Boib Garretson? Thanks. Keith

[JTR70]

Welcome Keith, thanks for joining us here! I hope you find the answers you're looking for.
Justin

[Keith Seume]

Withh reference to my edit of the last post, this is from Motorsport magazine, February 1964, in a report of the December Brands Hatch meeting:
"The last race Of the Guards Trophy saw Jim Morley's Lola-Climax finishing in third place to assure himself of the 1963 Guards Trophy. Outright winner was Roy Pierpoint's 2-litre Attila-Climax from Peter Gethin's 1,098-c.c. Lotus 23. Mike Beckwith drove the works Elva-Porsche which appeared with an old hack .Porsche RS 1700 engine using the vertical type of cooling fan and giving about 15 b.h.p. less than production versions using the later horizontal fan engine, but suffered from locking brakes and after holding art initial third place he dropped back to finish in a steady fifth place behind Terry Bone's Lotus 2.3."

[vhelmle]

Hello Everyone,

Steve Heinrichs has asked me to respond to the comments provided by Mr. Seume about the Elva cars in 1963 at Brands Hatch and in the US. We believe we are in agreement with Mr. Seume, but to make sure we will provide the following information:

According to an Elva-Porsche Factory record, Ernie Erickson received an Elva Porsche body without a motor (70/021) with vertical fan which shipped on 4 July 1963. This is the car that Erickson raced at 1963 Elkhart Lake Road America and a few later races.

Then Mike Beckwith raced 70/025 at Brands Hatch on Boxing Day, December 1963. This agrees with the article from February 1964 Motorsport magazine. This car, also with vertical fan, shipped to Erickson (possibly through Haas) in the US early in 1964. We believe that Erickson raced this car starting in May 1964 at Grayling.

Finally, returning to 1963, 70P/024 was the first production Elva Porsche Mark VIIS. It had a flat fan and was the 1963 Road America winner with Wuesthoff and Pabst.

Please let us know, of any discrepancies you may find.

Regards,

Vietta Helmle

[Keith Seume]

Thanks for the reply, but are you sure you haven't got 70/024 and 70/025 mixed up here?
The article in Feb 1964 Motorsport does not refer to a chassis number, only that Beckwith's car was fitted with a vertical fan engine.

I believed that 70/025 was the car which, a day after a test session at Brands Hatch, was shipped out to the USA in August 1963 to Haas and Schmidt, and then run by Hap Sharp at Wilmot Hills, and then at Road America, with Wuesthoff and Pabst.

This is backed up by the detailed notes I have about 70/025 from EDIT Don Bell, who owned the car after Bob Garretson. The notes show 70/025 as being the Haas/Schmidt Sharp/Wuesthoff/Pabst car. 70/025 is/was a flat-fan car. I have a detailed series of photos, which include a
close-up of the chassis (VIN) plate, etc.

[Keith Seume]

Have just spoken to Bob Garretson, whose recollection is that his (i.e., 70/025) was indeed the Haas/Schmidt car.

[Steve Heinrichs]

re 550/05 and 550-07:

Another point of agreement, I hope....

All of the races in Europe under consideration had a fixed rear end.

Note that the lady who prepared the notes describe 07 as basically the same as 05.

Steve Heinrichs

[Type550]

Yes, agree!

[vhelmle]

Thanks for the reply, but are you sure you haven't got 70/024 and 70/025 mixed up here?
The article in Feb 1964 Motorsport does not refer to a chassis number, only that Beckwith's car was fitted with a vertical fan engine.

I believed that 70/025 was the car which, a day after a test session at Brands Hatch, was shipped out to the USA in August 1963 to Haas and Schmidt, and then run by Hap Sharp at Wilmot Hills, and then at Road America, with Wuesthoff and Pabst.

This is backed up by the detailed notes I have about 70/025 from Michael Knebel, who owned the car after Bob Garretson. The notes show 70/025 as being the Haas/Schmidt Sharp/Wuesthoff/Pabst car. 70/025 is/was a flat-fan car. I have a detailed series of photos, which include a
close-up of the chassis (VIN) plate, etc.

Hello Everyone,

Steve Heinrichs has asked me to provide information about the 1963 Road America winner and related issues.

The question: Was the 1963 Elkhart Lake Road America winner 70/025 or 70P/024?

Like everyone else, we believed that 70/025 was the winner of 1963 Road America. But our research led us to believe otherwise.

70/025:
In the Carrera Book, we state that Erickson raced 70/025 at 1963 Road America.

However, after publication we learned that even though 70/025 was thought to be shipped in August 1963, it was probably still in Europe. We learned from an Elva expert that Beckwith raced 70/025 at December 1963 Brands Hatch. This means that 70/025 was shipped (without motor) to Haas later in 1964, well after 1963 Road America. This car (70/025) had a vertical fan.

At the same time, we found out that Erickson had actually received Elva chassis nr. 70/021, which is the car Erickson actually raced at 1963 Elkhart Lake with a 718 RS 60 motor and a vertical fan. In our Errata sheets we have revised the chassis numbers for Erickson at 1963 races at Road America, Greenwood, Lynndale Farms and Milwaukee from 70/025 to 70/021.

70P/024:7-8 September 1963 Elkhart Road America:
70/021 was raced by Erickson, but this was not an Elva-Porsche as he installed his motor from 718-054. The motor was 90250. This car had a vertical fan.

70P/024was raced by Wuesthoff/Pabst, and is correctly configured as a flat fan per the magazine article noted above. Motor nr. 90406.

26-28 December 1963 Brands Hatch Boxing Day Race:
70/025 was raced by Mike Beckwith. This car had a vertical fan and raced with a Porsche RS 1700 motor and was later shipped without a motor.

Regards,

Vietta

[Keith Seume]

[Steve Heinrichs]

Keith,

First, let me thank you for your thoughtful inquiry. The exchanges here regarding the recent book are all helpful to us---the book was over seven years in the making.

Vietta has been my co-researher since nearly the begining. I think it is fair to say that this "thread" is highly unusual in that I have seen nothing similar staarted by an author, including well-known ones. It has been very helpful to us. For example, Andrew and I (and others now) have debated the 550-05 and 550-07 issues for a very long time and I believe we've learned some things. Andrew has provided other identification information which we have agreed with---it has been gratefully received.

There is some background you should know: Some of the detailed information is controversial. We have tried diligently to triangulate the data. We have specifically avoided in the book the notation of current ownership data even if we know it. We have not published motor "int. nr." data because it is the really only way now to detect non matching cases and/or "created" motors. Also, we have avoided disclosure of most Porsche Archiv material that was part of the process.

Along the way, some people have become unhappy as it relates to their car or motor. Imagine if I told you that aa 4-cam motor you have was, in my view, a fake. This and more is why in a number of places, we say that the book is our view but is for fun and that it is important to do ones own research and reach one's own conclusions.

The way we work is that Vietta and I discuss the question raised, re-do our research and then (because, in part, because of my ongoing serious illness) Vietta drafts the post, I review it and she posts it after I approve. This is the way we will continue to operate. So, for that and other reasons, she is not available to be contacted directly.

As to the 024 vs. 025 issue, we will not disclose any sources. I urge you to consider the things publically
available---the magazine artice (some E-P did race on Boxing Day as it says). It could only be 024 or 025. The article notes the fan configuration. Also, if one considers subsequent races for those cars and 021, only one car works as we have noted.

We could be wrong, of course, but we are where we are unless we see other documentation. In that sense, our "expert" source was very helpful but basically pointed us in the correct direction. It is our conclusion as to what we've posted. He was not, of course, there at the time.

I hope this helps.

Steve Heinrichs