718 RSK RS60 RS61

[alan hall]

Porschinelle,
Great photos. But interesting that the last photo of no. 132 with the small dent in the nose is a different car than the other photos of no. 132. The car in that last photo is 718-041 and the other photos of no. 132 are of 718-043. Note differences in orientation of the numbers and that -041 does not have the built in driving lights that -043 has.

[alan hall]

Jacques, I found a couple of photos of Holbert at VIR in April, '61. As you can see the car had the wide oil cooler inlet and had Wendler body badges which points to the car being a customer RS-60 (718-051 and up). Definitely not -044.

[jacques]

Hi Alan can you determine over what period Holbert drove 044 and do you think that the factory switched tubs for entry paperwork purposes and the tub that Holbert was running had been rebodied or a customer car sold with the 044 serial??
j

[Porschinelle]

Hi Alan

Very interesting comment
I found these pics on a topic dedicated to the Targa Florio and they were all together
May be Porsche took over to Sicily 4 718 041/043/044 and 047 and only 3 raced
(-043/044 and 047) Porsche did that often for the Le Mans race : take over more cars than they had entries, to practice and then choose the best ones for the race
In this case 2 different cars will wear the same race number.

One month later Porsche enter again 3 718 in the ADAC 1000 km reisen on the Nurburgring with the same 6 pilots

Car ra

[Porschinelle]

Car race number 20 was -041 for Moss/Hill



Car race number 21 was -047 for Bonnier/Gurney



Car race number 23 was -044 for Barth/Hermann
did not found any pic for -044

-043 did not start

Your opinion ?

[alan hall]

Sounds correct to me.

[alan hall]

Hi Alan can you determine over what period Holbert drove 044 and do you think that the factory switched tubs for entry paperwork purposes and the tub that Holbert was running had been rebodied or a customer car sold with the 044 serial??
j

Jacques, I will see what, if anything, I can determine. Warren bought -044 around 1980 and the first time I saw it, it was being re-bodied by Custom Metal Shaping in Orange County around '80 or '81 (I took my car out there so they could verify some measurements on the body). I don't recall, if I ever knew, what it's history was in the late 60's and 70's or who Warren got it from. I know Steve shows a Holbert connection but again I don't know where that information came from or the reliability of it. Have you asked Warren about the history?

[Rickie]

Two bits of ephemera: the Racing Sports Cars site has question marks attached to the Bob Holbert chassis numbers for RS 60s... Further to that when Holbert rolled one of his cars did the factory not supply him with a long chassis like the Grossmutter W-RS which was somewhat of a surprise to him and could this have anything to do with some number fudging? Just speculating here.

[alan hall]

Rickie, I believe you are correct and the chassis number of the replacement chassis was perhaps -048 that was also re-bodied by Custom Metal Shaping in January, 1980 and belonged at that time to Dean Watts.

Jacques, I looked at some of my old notes re: -044 and I have noted that it was ex- Brumos and that Warren was having it re-bodied in 8/78.

[356]

Really enjoying the history guys.
~Vance

[jacques]

Hi Guys thank you very much. I am now convinced that the vehicle sold by Gooding in 2015 is entitled to the bragging rights of the 1961 Targa unless Porsche rolls out the real car. i think the history has been overstated: the good history and ignored any bad history but that is the norm. What interest me the most is the 4 cyl 2.0ltr engine scenario. 587 production did not begin until much later in 1961 was the 2.0 engine a 692 with small heads or a 547 with a special roller crank. why does the race prep sheet Alan provided not show special ratios for the increase torque? and is there confusion with the 8 cylinder that belonged in 047/046
TIA
j

[alan hall]

Jacques,
Most of the data I have relates to 718-041 since I owned it for a while. The only references I have to it ever being run with a 2-litre motor was at Hockenheim in March 1961. A sheet which I believe is a transmission setup record for that race is attached, but since I don't speak or read German I am not sure. I have other sheets for races where it had a 1.7 liter motor if that would help for comparison.

Also I looked for photos of the car Holbert was driving in all of the races where Steve shows him driving -044, and the only other one I found was Bridghampton, 5/28/61 and again he is driving a customer RS-60 and not -044. Steve shows Holbert driving 718-065 in some later races, so perhaps that is the car he was driving in all the races where Steve shows him in -044.

Alan

[Miracle Man]

I will try to help. I have no clue about the cars serial numbers but can say that Bridgehampton had 2 nationals in 1961. I was at 1 and have photos of Holbert at that race. I also know Holbert did crash a car and have photos of the crashed car, but no idea what chassis it was. I also have photos of the car he drove later at Thompson and Watkins Glen. I especially remember Holbert and Bob Bucher (RSK) sliding and drifting the last, uphill turn before start/finish. Both were masters of car control. From the numbers on the car, the paint on the nose and the class letters (EM) this is the same car he had at Cumberland earlier. These photos were taken at the May Bridge race. I hope the photos are inserted - often I do forget exactly how.





[attachment:2]61Bridge-#140sidewaysWeb.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment:3]61Bridge-#129PorscheWeb.jpg[/attachment]

[alan hall]

Thanks for posting the photo, it looks like only one came through, but if you could try again with any photos of Holbert's cars that you have it would sure help in sorting out if he ever drove 719-044! Like Jacques said a lot of the history reported on these cars is somewhat fanciful, and although Steve tried mightily to sort it out there are still a huge number of mistakes published as fact.

[Miracle Man]

Damn, I saw all 3 listed when I hit "submit". You can see Holbert at various races in 1961 on my website www.barcboys.com Simply go to the various tracks and click on the year you want to see. Lots of my photos show up in this forum and that is fine with me so long as our copyright is understood. Here are the two others I mentioned.