1958 T2 Restoration

[blue58356]

I am a new member to ABCGT (you can see my backstory in the Welcome Mat forum) and new to restoration/mechanical work. I have a 58 T2 that I am going to try to restore, and I figured I would create a posting to track the (very slow) progress on this project.





I had originally thought (before I took possession of the car) I would a lot of the work myself, so I watched several restoration/fabrication TV shows, bought 3 different restoration books on 356 specifically, the service manual, and a set of wrenches. LOL, looks like I was a bit naive.





I got the car into my garage and started to really look at it. There is so much rust, I am quickly over my head. I can put my finger through the "metal" that holds the rear torsion bar in the rear wheel well. I had a couple of local body shop guys come out and help me assess the car to see what it would take for them to "restore" it. I would have to mortgage my house, and provide my first born for that to work out.

So, I am back to a plan of taking the car apart, having the paint/rust stripping done somewhere (still deciding on what the best method would be, and where), and then having a shop do the major structural welding. From there, my current plan is to get the engine rebuilt (doing as much as I can myself), and then doing the outer body.





I have started to tear down the interior, which is going slower than expected as there always seems to be one screw that doesn't want to come out easily and needs some extra incentive. Knowing that every little bit of trim or rubber seal is so important for rebuild or templates, I am taking it extra slow. I have followed the guidance of several members here and have many boxes of ziplock storage bags for small parts and screws, and have written on them with sharpie pen what they are and where they go. As a couple of people also pointed out in the Welcome post, journaling the process/layout/orientation and taking measurements is going to be key to success during the rebuild.

I will try to keep up with this post as I have more thoughts/progress to share.

Thanks for reading this,
Chris

[DG58INNM]

Chris,
Nice looking project. Don't despair. Rust repair is not nearly as difficult as most people make it out to be. It requires some learning and tools, but you may find you are quite capable of doing it yourself, and to a much higher standard than all but a handful of "professionals" in the business.

I also have a blue '58 coupe (#104006). But Meissen Blue, like Roy's, not Aquamarine. When I started work on it I was experienced with many facets of Porsche mechanical and restoration work. But I had never done serious rust repair, beyond a few small and poorly done MIG patches. I took my car to an "expert" for rust repairs, and was appalled at the poor quality I got back. So I resolved to learn and do it myself, and now I rather enjoy it. I'll always be an amateur, and I'm terribly slow, but at least I know if the work isn't up to standards I've no one to blame but myself.

Awesome cars, and none better than T2 coupes! Justin's site is a wonderful resource for us all.

Best of luck,
DG

[Jonesy_356]

Chris,

I echo DG's comments. You may surprise yourself as to how much you can do, and to what standard, when it is your car. I thoroughly recommend doing as much of the metal work as you can. It is a learnable task that gets easier the more you do. If I can offer you some advice as a near-rookie myself - if you intend to do any work on metal yourself, don't be afraid to go out and buy a MIG welder (to start off with) and try a few little obvious patches to areas that will be hidden when the car is back together. You will no doubt quickly advance your skills through making mistakes and having small victories, depending on your particular make-up.

My own philosophy is to do everything myself. This has cost me time as I have made more mistakes then I car to mention. And when I look back at the first repairs I did, frankly I am a bit horrified and some of them will have to be redone later. BUT - every mistake I made taught me something. I am a slow learner and a bit 'proud' so I am reticent to accept that I have not done something well. So as a character test/life experience activity my restoration has been valuable to me in more that just one way. A bit of a Zen approach, but that's what I have found.

Additionally, there are many others on there, and other sites, who have gone through exactly the same experiences, and can demonstrate excellent work now, while reminding us that they had to start off somewhere. Humility seems to be a consistent characteristic of the regulars on the restoration forum (and no doubt elsewhere here - I still haven't explored all corners of this site - I dunno how Justin gets around everywhere). There are also other sites such as allmetalshaping.com - which I thoroughly recommend - where similar support can be found.

A bit lengthy, take it for what it is worth, go your own way. Hope it helps.

Thanks for sharing,

Jonesy

p.s. don't forget to hit the 'insert' button after you have selected a file and come back to the page when you are posting, or else your pictures won't display, only thumbnails. Make sure the curser is in the right spot before hitting 'insert'. See - mistakes are the basis for learning!!

p.p.s I just had a good look at your photos. It looks like you have an unmolested car. You are very lucky. More than half the dramas seem to come from fixing other people's work from a time when these cars were worth significantly less then they are now - the days on undressed MIG welds, brazing and bondo. You are VERY lucky indeed!!

[JTR70]

David and Jonesy hit it right on the head Chris. We are all on the learning curve when it comes to these cars. I started out exactly like these guys. I ended up doing my battery floor repair 3 times before I was satisfied and the longitudinal repairs twice along with several other shoty small first attempt patch repairs through my years of on again-off again work on my coupe. It sounds like you have been getting a crash course in how expensive the steel repair can be. It can most certainly get very costly. BTW if you decide to farm it out and end up blowing your budget, I highly recommend that you blow it on the steel work. Don't spend a single dime of your money on any other aspect of this car until that stage is done.( no chrome, no interior, no motor, none of it) If you run out of money or interest post steel work due to life's priority changes you will be absolutely golden! A correctly repaired AT2 coupe shell with all of its parts in boxes would be an easy sell that would also command a premium price. However it all hinges on how correct the repairs are. If they are incorrect you'll be dinged hard on the resale no matter how shiny the paint is because the next owner is going to have to pay someone else to correct it so this work is the most critical aspect of your build. Don't just hire a welding shop either as they will more than likely miss specific build details which will ultimately devalue the car. Make sure its a shop that knows these cars intimately; Or you can tackle it yourself. What you really have to do is get it media blasted so you can see just how bad or good this car really is. Good luck with the disassembly BTW: Don't worry about saving the carpet, it looks like domestic loop pile from your photo above, definitely not German square weave like it should be.
Justin

[blue58356]

Thank you all for your encouragement. I am on the fence about how much to do myself, and how much to trust a shop with. Tearing down further this weekend uncovered more issues, but I will submit another post about that. Space, time, neighbors, and money will all factor into the decision. Part of me would really would like to get a welder, build a rotisserie, and tackle a good portion of this myself. As Justin points out though, doing it wrong could make more damage in the long run. I completely agree with Justin's comment about sinking the budget into metal repairs first before anything else. Thank you for that Justin, that makes complete sense to me.

Also, thank you Justin for the comment on the carpet. I thought the carpet was original, but then questioned it this weekend when I found some speaker wire running to the back of the car under the carpet. I hope whoever changed the carpet used the original as a template, and I am not re-creating a bad install. Based on some of the other ugly work I found this weekend, I am going to assume not and look for some other owners that have original carpet for some layout guidance when I get to that stage.

@Jonesy- Thank you for the comments on posting the pictures. I couldn't figure out why they were showing as thumbnails. I guess Justin was coming behind me and cleaning it up. (another thank you to Justin for his behind the scenes work on making this forum great.)

[blue58356]

I spent some time in the garage this weekend, working to get all the seats, carpet, and upholstery out. It took quite a bit longer than expected, but was very insightful, and therapeutic. A few cans of PB Blaster, and most of the screws came out okay. A couple were very stubborn and took some coaxing to get out.



I was able to get the front seats out, and the mats below them. Look at those holes. It's a wonder I didn't fall right through when I was sitting in it.



I took the parcel shelf out, back seats, and Quarter window upholstery (Not sure if that is the correct term) out next.



I found this on the back of the rear seat back. I have a feeling this wasn't the original seat back. Ha ha.



I found a bit of a surprise in the Transmission bell/Shift linkage housing. Looks like these guys made the trip from New York with me as well.



With the passenger side door panel removed, the door interiors look okay with just a small bit of rust.

[blue58356]

I got the rear of the car up on jack stands and started to poke around under the car. I found some pretty nasty previous repair jobs, so as DG and Jonesy mentioned, I probably can't do any worse than these.



Yikes!




There are some pretty bad rust spots under the car, with the rear torsion bar support being of main concern.



There are some other rather rusty spots throughout the car, but the battery tray seems to be solid.

[roy mawbey]

Chris,

I confirmed some points on your first thread today. Just looked at this new one. The colour identification plate I mentioned with the code number for Aquamarine will not always be there on 58 cars. The chassis number will be there though.

Your door has still the stencilled end 3 digits of the chassis number. The front and rear hood also have the 3 digits. Look on the hinge areas. They are stamped not stencilled.

My floors and battery box are original but that is only because I don't like getting it wet.! Most have new floors and longitudinals as well as the battery box. Look at www.Stoddard.com and 356 parts. They show all the items.

Your car looks original in many ways. You might be surprised at just how much you could do welding wise. In the end I like David, actually liked doing it at a time when I could not easily get panels so fabricated them myself.

Decide what you want to end up with, a car you could show, or a car you and you dad would have been happy to drive around the local area for fun. So correct above, the only people to do bodywork or chassis repair work are those who know 356 inside out. Otherwise they will be learning the job as they go. More photos of underneath please.

Good advice by everyone above, we all have seen 356 cars a thousand times worse than yours.

Take your time!Pleased Justin confimed like me the carpet is wrong. By the way full carpet sets can be purchased for your car correct with German weave but ask questions on that before you buy as some are not exactly correct on the back seat area.

Roy

[blue58356]

Thanks Roy!

The hinge plate doesn't show the color on my car. I did order the COA early on and it confirms the color is Aquamarine (5707), so you hit it right on the money. Thank you for the link to the paint codes in the welcome posting.

Yes, I probably should have started off the thread with this information, but the car has all the correct panels. The hood hinges, deck lid, and doors have 560 stamped into them. The wheel rims all have the correct 58 marking on them. The only negative for numbers so far is that the engine doesn't match the COA. The engine currently in the car seems to be SN for 1956 (6096, while the engine(s) listed on the COA are 69588 and 74218. It seems the engine was factory replaced at 101,534km.

I agree, I don't want a concourse show car I can't enjoy driving. I want a car that I can shoot around town, and really have fun driving.

I will add some more pictures of the underside in a bit as well. Warning- they are not pretty. I am really glad that you have seen worse. I wasn't sure what to expect with the torsion damage, and if I was going to get the "it's too far gone" message.

Chris

[blue58356]

Here are some more photos of the car, for better or worse.

[bbspdstr]

It made me smile to see the inner right door with the Teutonic crayon scrawl of the last three digits.....that may have been a door destined for another 356 at the Factory that was used for yours.

Establish your own protocol for disassembly. I use a lined sheet of paper on a clipboard with columns for 'save and restore,' 'replace' and 'refinish'....either chrome, other plating, or painting such as black on seat risers, etc.

Buy what needs replacing as you become aware of a need....everything is going up..... while I write this!

I try to keep with the 1>9 sections of a parts book and model-specific repair ('shop') manual, so the exploded drawings help identify what's missing or just incorrect. Get Bill Romano's CD's, they cross shop and parts manuals. Bill produced Ron Roland's book.

Throw nothing away until the project is finished. (Except maybe the aftermarket carpet and upholstery coverings.)

Soak all threaded things that need to be removed with Kroil or other penetrant. Often. Exercise patience.

'The books' are invaluable, even with the huge resource the Internet can provide. Ron Roland's book is #1 to procure, a Stoddard catalogue is worthwhile for it's pictures and descriptions and the gang here is amazing!

Know that the task is daunting but find a reasonable schedule for dedicated time so a little progress is continuous rather than putting it off until a big amount of time can be spent, as that usually never happens.

My own A sits neglected for that reason, but I have an excuse. I do what you are about to set out on for my living, so a day of 356 fixin' up on someone else's car is usually about enough. Still, I support and encourage enthusiasts who have the discipline and vision to use common sense in achieving a satisfying end result.

We all began in the same way. I was interested in 356s when they were all that Porsche produced (other than those aluminum things that no one can afford now or could, back-in-the-day). I found a job in a local bodyshop and then a Porsche-specific mechanical shop to learn in when I was in high school. I was also mentored by other enthusiasts, as 356s were cars one could learn to fix oneself as they were basic and relatively simple...so DIY was a natural draw to someone like me who could not afford to pay anyone else for much of anything.

Know that no matter how bad you think your project 356 is, someone has fixed worse. There is a strong network for everything if you 'ask around.' I have told my workers since I was told as a very young man by my employers, and it applies here, "there is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid mistake."

It makes me happy to see another 356 saved (and I'm partial to the A models)....so know that on Justin's site, "we have your six." (OK, 'back')

One last thing: I deal now with nit-pickers who have learned a great deal as hobbyists about details and esoterica beyond the basics I learned 50+ years ago. They keep raising the bar for me as a professional and I like the challenge....BUT, I still use the saying "everything looks better over 50 MPH." The cars were built to be driven, not worshiped!

I just returned from a 'house call' in Rhode Island where I did some work on one of my old Speedsters and it's new owner's 'other' 356, a very nice SC Cabriolet. I ("spiritedly") drove the SC on some rural roads and it felt like I remember them to drive when new...and it renewed my love of the 356s and reignited my (waning, jaded) enthusiasm. If you get stuck in your project, find an owner whose 356 is done and beg a drive.....it's a tonic that will keep you going with yours.

Good luck,
-Bruce Baker

[John Pierce]

Chris,

Welcome aboard! Your car its a bit rusty, but is complete, which is very important. The advice that has been given is invaluable. Don't get disheartened or try to look at the big picture. Take small bites and move forward and it will slowly come together. The projects that are being done on Justin's site are all great and each provides lots of information on how you can move forward. Where are you located?


John

[blue58356]

Thank you for the advice Bruce and John. Lot's of tidbits to take out of those messages.

@ John- I am located in Raleigh, NC.

Thanks,
Chris

[blue58356]

John- I have been reading your post on your restoration. Fantastic post with amazing work. I can't believe the level of work you are doing. I wouldn't even know where to start on some of those repairs. measuring the correct angles, bends, and making the replacement pieces... very inspiring.

[blue58356]

I have lots more reading and studying to do before I get the courage to actually start any serious repair work. I have read through the "tools" forum post as well. I think my initial question is what are the "required" tools or what priority should I put on them.

For example, I see many comments about sandblasting parts. Would getting a 60lb sandblasting cabinet be a good purchase and a priority? How about a Parts Washer? I would think those items would be used almost daily.

As for welding... I am most nervous about this as I have no experience, and reading the forums and vendor sites can be overwhelming with data. Is MIG the best for a novice? Is TIG a better weld and worth the additional time to learn and investment?

There are so many conversations about AMPS and Duty Cycles, what is truly required for a weekend warrior? I don't want to overspend here, but I don't want to waste money on a tool that will be frustrating and not meet the needs of the job either.

What about units that include multifunction, such as TIG and Plasma cutter? Would buying a multipurpose tool detract from the performance of either function?