SC Coupe Restoration

[foamcar]

To add to the hood inner gap data base, here is Foamcars gaps. Along the passenger side it is pretty tight, more gap on the drivers side:






Here is rear gap:




And the front:

[MMW]

I am far from an expert but thinking about the seam sealer my first thought was it would not be able to breath so any moisture could/would get trapped from condensation. The way you guys are doing it is the best. Clean & epoxy prime will last longer than original & then throw in the fact that it will rarely ever see rain these will be good for longer than you can think.

[tperazzo]

Cool thanks John for your measurements as well. Its rare that we all get the same thing! Enjoy your virgin hood and don't let it fall off the bench like I did.

I totally agree with you Justin about forum posts. For me it really encourages good work and I learn so much. For those of you who are just beginning the metal work phase, I hope that our posts aren't intimidating. My quality of work started out very shaky and progressed over almost 9 years. I will look for some photos of my first repairs and post them here for fun. Some of my early repairs have been re-worked as my skill improved. If you haven't posted your project on abcgt.com then do it, you will find it addicting and we are here to help if you need it.

Even though I should be at work. I couldn't focus until I trial fitted the hood.

As Bruce was saying in truth, more forceful "encouragement" is needed to match the contour. The photo below shows a tad too much curvature.


The right side is a little hung up due to the still open hem.




The point of this exercise was too ensure that it fits close enough to go ahead and epoxy primer/paint the inside. Then I will hammer the hems close to permanently marry these parts together. I may not spot weld until after the hoods fits perfectly. The spot welds will take away some of the flexibility.

I'm not going to try and bend the curvature with the hems open all over the place. Also I want the weather seal in place to do any fine tuning.

Regarding the seam sealer idea, I think its not a bad idea as anything would have been better than what the factory did. (untreated steel in an open cavity). My feeling is that epoxy primer and paint should be enough to protect these parts for a long time. My car will be garaged, so gone are the days of being left outside to rust.

Nice Bali blue car Bruce. My car is a Karmann, but didn't have the textured finish. No one is for sure if my hood was original....50/50 guess. Do you think its fairly safe to say all karmann coupe hoods had texture? Mine is 218094 64C. Thanks again for your expertise.

Today was a "fun" day, since my hood fits 100x better than it did when I bought this car 15 years ago and its not even close to done yet.
Cheers,
Tom

[bbspdstr]

I borrowed a shot by Mic from the Hershey meet. The lack of hood handle and the Bali blue color in the sunshine makes the hood show the contours and gaps fairly well. The owner of this car separated the lid skin from the frame as an early involvement in his car an I finished it. There was rust and it had been blown back and the cowl was a mess with a big curved crease the last guys filled with bondo. Still, it was blasted and repaired and as a nice Karmann touch, had the texture sprayed in to hide the myriad minor flaws not addressed but now covered up.

[Don C]

Thanks for the offer Tom. Right now my big project is expanding my 18'x10 shed into a 18'x22' garage so I can fit the "C" into it then the fun starts!

[bbspdstr]

Hi would it be too incorrect to use flexible body seam sealer in the gaps between the hood and frame This would have the effect of strengthening the hood more and if you remove a little bit on the visible edge side it will be almost invisible. it would also double as a moisture barrier preventing further rust
Armand

Hi Armand,
The first thing I thought of after reading your question of sealer was of Phil's "Foam Car." We have all had thoughts of ways to better what Porsche designed but over time have paid for the consequences, so I, too, would say that's a good idea that shouldn't be tried.

Here's why; Tom posted "and twisted the hell out of it" about his shaped blocks and actually, that is still needed in the hood when 'finished.' The coachbuilders used 'some' spotwelds around the perimeter to keep from too much flex or separation, but not on the inside edge of the frame where it would 'lock' the shape to be too rigid. Only the front center is fixed when adjusted but even the hinges have some flexibility.

Flexibility to some degree is always needed. We adjust hoods laterally by one person pushing on one side and another pulling from the other side, sometimes using a board to help 'insist' and get the hood to just lay in place and then work with the forward latch in lateral and height adjustments after the curve is fine. Even that is a pry and muscle job(with finesse). The slotted holes in the hood's blades allow gaps to be established by averaging side angles, occasionally a 'hydraulic assist' is used to slightly widen the hood opening to get the even gap all around. I'll use a sandbag (not a bag of sand)to encourage the arc of a side, 'trial and error.' There usually is more twisting of a hood that you'd imagine to make uneven fender sides come to an acceptable average.

This whole dialogue is support for the term 'made by hand.' Even the rubber seal plays a part in fit. Fitting panels is for me right up there with Roadster/D windshields. Very difficult but do-able with patience and care, applying common sense to get from not fitting to fitting and sealing. "If I do this, what happens?" Planning and concentration.

BTW, I began when OEM parts were still available to some degree. New Factory panels were fit this same way. Even the crash books of the day acknowledged that they were 'custom fit.'

It's like computers. They get us here and discussing bits of old Porsche knowledge. We all may not understand how they actually work, I sure don't, but we should not be afraid to try things to make the computers do what we want them to do, as trying and patience and asking others to share their experiences usually gets you where you want to go.

These threads are fun, almost as much as getting a good result...but the key word is 'almost.'

[John Pierce]

Hi Tom,

My hood to frame gap Measures between 2-3 mm throughout on an unkinked and unmolested hood. It is the only unmolested part on my car! Everything else is quite rusty. I really like your ideas on how to unkink these rust buckets. Very ingenious. I totally concur with Justin.

I don't think putting seam sealer at this gap would be good as the hood sheet metal needs to expand and contract. Water would have a hard time getting into the gap as it is protected.

JP

[JTR70]

Fantastic Tom! The block was a Very creative way of correcting the problem to achieve the desired outcome. Nothing funny or silly about it, This is exactly what I believe our build threads are all about; except for Bruce of course we are ALL just amateur hobbyist's with a passion for our projects armed only with the basic tools and our brains to get us past the next challenge our cars throw at us. The dream is of course to have an outfitted shop like Steve Hogue's but I'd have to sell all of my cars to afford all of those tools; then I wouldn't need the tools! We are regular guys hopefully showing other regular guys what can be achieved out in your own garage on a limited budget but with limitless passion and determination for getting things done. Okay, I'm down off the soapbox. The hood is really taking shape; keep it up!! Justin

[Impi]

Hi would it be too incorrect to use flexible body seam sealer in the gaps between the hood and frame This would have the effect of strengthening the hood more and if you remove a little bit on the visible edge side it will be almost invisible. it would also double as a moisture barrier preventing further rust
Armand

[tperazzo]

Many thanks Don and Bruce for sharing your gap information! Super helpful and probably not in any of the books. Don, please ask if you ever need any measurements from me.

I did get mine within the ranges above after some serious wrestling. After losing several rounds, it finally moved the right way.

Back when I was splicing in the kinked areas on this frame the stupid thing fell off my table when it was in a vulnerable state. This most likely twisted the frame which is why I'm having trouble now.

Desperate times require new ideas and you might find this one funny.

The huge block pictured was made several weeks ago when I was matching the contour to the car. This time I sandwiched the block with another one below and twisted the hell out of it.

You can also see a big rubber hammer laying on the floor that was used frequently too.

Some finessing with the hammer and dolly was also used. Still minor work needed to take some of the waves out of the little flange and re-crisp some edges, but here is what I ended up with this afternoon.




The pictures make it look like its touching, but there is clearance in the tight spots and about 3 mm in others.

Tomorrow, I will try to mount it to the car to check fit again.
Thanks again for the measurements.
Tom

[Don C]

Tom,
On my '65C there is about 1/8" but it's not too consistent because the hood has been kinked.

[bbspdstr]

Tom, the alternative without 'taking it outside' is a unit like this:

http://www.eastwood.com/speed-blaster-spot-blast-adaptor.html

(I use Eastwood as an example. It's local to me and I've known the owner, Curt Strohacker, for almost 40 years...before Eastwood was formed.)

I have a similar unit. It's used on the body parts that are stripped but show spots where they were bare and rusted and need to be 'deep cleaned.'

To answer the gap question, my experience is that the gap inside the lid is not-quite-touching to almost 4mm. I just checked an original car and it is closer at the hinge area blade (where I can just get a fingernail in) and at the curve toward the front it is about 3mm and then front center is close again, obviously VERY close where it is spot-welded. This one was never rusted, kinked or blown back and it has the 'right' look. (If I was logged in on IE, I could send a picture of several like that here...Firefox won't jive with this site for picture sharing.)

Anyway, gorgeous work that you and the others like Phil and Justin are doing and it makes my day to see work as good or better than my own (albeit I have limited time 'cause all these little areas can add up time-wise to a huge bill!)

BTW, I would not fill those pits unless perforated, even as you are a good welder. You will quite likely chase your tail with the heat, the various thicknesses, etc, etc. When blasted (with fingers crossed and without distortion) those areas get epoxy primed. All that matters is that the spot-welded areas are not primed with more than weld-through, if anything. Once fit to the opening, the lid is another panel that gets propped against a wall on cardboard and regularly turned so extra final 'juice' can penetrate all of that seam and drained via the holes for that purpose or laid down upside-down and mopped up as it runs out. You know, just like Porsche shoulda done it.....

Back to work,
Bruce

[tperazzo]

I envy you Bruce for having all the cool tools at your disposal. A spot blaster would be really nice and I've always wanted one. I even looked at one that has a vacuum attachment, but I still don't have one

At least I can brag that my hood skin removal tool is carbide tipped.

Justin, I ended up bending the hems cold. Sorry to hear about your roof diversion. Good catch though....or are you just trying to let me catch up to you? ha ha. Then you speed past me at the finish line Your car is going to be fast!

Anyhow, enough day dreaming.

My frame and skin fit together miraculously!

More fine tuning needed to reduce the gap between frame and skin as viewed from the inside.



My hope is to even these gaps without touching the skin. What do you guys see on your cars? 1/8 to 1/4" gap?
Thanks,
Tom

[bbspdstr]

AW....

Phil, Tom, Justin, Roy et al.....this is fun. Learn an' teach and learn some more....WITH PICTURES!

I have to get back to the actual stuff being discussed, but I will offer that the pits go out back to the gravel lot with a small pressure pot of fine sand and get blasted...carefully....and THEN acid-etched.

Just my way over a 'few' years of doing such things.

Thanks,
-Bruce

[foamcar]

Justin
Bruce has been kind enough to mentor me through most of the 12 years I have been working on Foam Car. First by email with attached pictures, then some of the Registry forum and now here. I have saved all of his emails(will send them to you Bruce when you write your book), in various places on 3 different computers. Way back he advised me that, "of course you will remove the hood skin to address the rust issues there" or something like that. I have not stripped my hood yet, but assume that when I do, there will be evidence of rust at the hem. So, yes, current plan is to remove that skin when I get the nose repaired. Right now I am leaving the hood untouched, as the hood fit was the only good one on Foam Car when I bought it. So, that will be my guide during nose re-install.

Phil