Evolution of the 356A T1 & T2 How they differ

[JTR70]

Thanks for all the help you've given Bruce! BTW: what undercoat system are you using there?

[bbspdstr]

[James Davies]

[quote="bbspdstr" post=39191]
The latest is that the European (nee "Continental") was one of the few early examples sporting texture coating under both the front and rear lids. I am at a disadvantage due to always blowing off cars like that that were not T-6 Karmanns as having texturing inside of bumpers or lids or other "uncommon" areas as cover-up of bad bodywork or "customizing."

Now I find from John Willhoit that he had an early '56 Speedster that passed through his shop that was done that way. The sister European to the one I have that was restored by Rainer Cooney a few years ago was done that way and Rainer provided pictures he found of an "original" application of that "undercoat/sound-deadener" done in a most un-Porsche-like way....on hinges and hardware....not neat at all.

So, if what I'm asking about, an interruption, gets past the current topic in this thread and anyone has any experience with or access to pictures or chassis numbers, please post them here. (And no, I cannot find anything in Brett's, Ron Roland's or the Factory literature.)[/quote





Hi Bruce,

Joris would be a good person to talk to on this topic. But yeah, the early T1 cars had schutz on the undersides of their lids. My '53 coupe has an early '56 front lid, and it also has this schutz. Last 3 digits are "537" on the front lid. The schutz is only applied to the underside skin. Not to the internal frame structure. Do you find the same pattern on yours?

Early T1 cars also had schutz applied on the inside of the door skin (just like T0) and on the backside of the front closing panel, the little bit of floor there, and a little way up the other panel, though not as high as the fresh air vent. This is also the same as T0 practice (at least back to 1952). And of course body color paint over the schutz.

[bbspdstr]

"My '53 coupe has an early '56 front lid, and it also has this schutz. Last 3 digits are "537" on the front lid. The schutz is only applied to the underside skin. Not to the internal frame structure. Do you find the same pattern on yours?"

Yes, the remains of the underside lid texture on this Cabriolet was inside the outer frame but unreliable from previous work and that influence of disturbance. I did the texture of my restoration split between just the bordered "center" and Rainer's pictures of "originality", as I just could NOT do that as sloppy as was alleged to have been sprayed by the Porsche coachbuilders. Anyone can call that what they will, but I call that "poetic license."

I no longer have any of my many T-0 356s that I "messed with" in my formative years (they were cheap and for a reason) and I no longer have clear memories of those T-0 details that are now so much in demand.

After all, I graduated to drive a T-1, then a bunch of T-2s...and then T-5s and eventually T-6 356s......and forsake the T-0. Please note, I keyed on the word "drive" and also insinuate that I believe in evolution. I also have a T-shirt that proclaims "Sure they made Porsches after 1965......but who cares?" Does that make me conflicted?

-Bruce

[JTR70]

One thing this thread has showed me is never say never because there are certainly no Absolutes with these cars but I have to say that any factory tar coating on the underside of a 4 piece early T0 or T1 hood is the rare exception and not the rule. I've seen many and never run across one and both my late '56 production cars had no undercoating. Inside of the doors, definitely, tar coated. On the rare occasion you do find a hood coated its usually there to conceal old accident damage. This practice was definitely a Karmann thing as it went up through the production of the 901 but I've never associated it with Reutter built cars.

[badsix]

I wonder if undercoating of these cars and specific parts was done at the dealer. this was a common thing back in the 50s. I can remember almost all the dealerships in my area had undercoat bays and would undercoat anything the customer wanted. I'm done rambling.
Jay D.

[James Davies]

Bruce, it sounds like your restoration is going to be great! Yes, on my '56 hood the schutz does not cover the inner frame, but on coupe 55596 it does. That car is an original-paint time capsule. You can see the schutz under the paint (just barely) in the photo below.



It also covers the inner frame on coupe 56583 below also.



Yes, the schutz on the undersides of the lids was very short-lived. It was only the first half of the 1956 model year roughly, but nobody knows the exact duration. Certainly it was not being done at the end of the year. It roughly coincides with the first T1 cars also using the same T0 noses with "chin" bottom center and signal lights close up below the headlights. These noses were the same as those used since ~Oct 1952 on the T0. There are a bunch of other early '56 details that show experimentation on the part of Reutter in addressing problems such as sound deadening and increased productivity that Porsche demanded.

As for the sloppy schutz, I've seen some pretty sloppy schutz on pre-A cars, so I would not be surprised to find it on the first T1 cars as well. And certainly dealers and owners applied undercoating on the cars once imported, but the areas we are talking about were schutz first, then the exterior paint color sprayed over the top (in the case of the lids, inner door skin and the area between the door and front closing panel). The door schutz could very, very sloppy.

On the pre-A cars there was also schutz brushed on under the dashboard as a sealant. Again, quite sloppy.

[bbspdstr]

Ahhhhh, an "easy" color..... Aquamarine blue metallic

That is the color the European Cabriolet is to be as was it's earlier 'sister car' which also had the under lid texturing. It took 10 samples to please the owner and at least 9 could have been "correct" to someone else's eye. That's 2 in a row. The previous was a T-1 Coupe, M.Y. '57 but with the Factory info stating it was painted in 5607. Same trouble with color acceptance and a hazard of the restoration business.

The front panel was T-0. Half of the floor pan was T-0. A few other T-0 "left-overs" being used-up.

The Conti Cab about to be painted was finished in November '55 and had the undersides of the lids textured. A Speedster I have now was made 4 months later and had no lid texture....but was originally 603, Speedster white.

Thanks for the input,
Bruce

[James Davies]

Yes, easy color, second only to Adria blue metallic, of which there were at least 2 versions during the pre-A period.

Your experience matching Aquamarine blue metallic is not very different from Reutter's experience trying to spray the stuff. They had so many quality control issues spraying it with the new kunhartzlack paint they were using in 1956, and they so often had to sand the whole car down again and repaint it, that they lobbied hard to Porsche to get rid of all metallic colors, which Porsche did for 1957 onwards, retaining only silver. Frank Jung reports on this little saga in his "Porsche 356 by Reutter" book. Though as you point out, they were still using the metallic version of Aquamarine into early 1957, at least through coupe 58589.

Is the difference between the T0 and T1 front floor panels the size of the area for the seat rails? Otherwise the same?

Interesting about the Continental cabriolet having schutz on the lids. That's very odd. The 6th-to-last pre-A coupe (also Continental) produced does not have this feature. Perhaps your Conti was very delayed in its production (and paint) and went through the production line (including paint) along with the 356A cars already in production. I wouldn't be surprised as building the tops on the cabriolets meant they spent more time in production at Reutter than the coupes.

I don't know of any Speedsters that had the texture on the lids, but then again the Speedsters lacked much of the "luxury" sound insulation of the coupes and cabs, so perhaps this is not surprising?

[bbspdstr]

"I don't know of any Speedsters that had the texture on the lids, but then again the Speedsters lacked much of the "luxury" sound insulation of the coupes and cabs, so perhaps this is not surprising? "

The Cabriolet I am restoring is in the paint shop now, so I cannot check the details, but the pan used of the three ordered for comparison was a Simonsen, I think, from memory....which means I'd need to check my files.

As for Speedsters with under-lid texture, John Willhoit had one come through and again, in a test of memory, I had a '56 also come to me with that added detail. 40 years ago, I had written that off to an afterthought added later, but it seems a few Speedsters got that treatment along with the few '56 Cabriolets. Documentation, in words and/or pictures, has been very hard to find and naturally, personal experiences are as well. I have trusted Rainer Cooney and his work on the consecutive numbered Cab to the one I am doing.

Thanks for the input and best regards,
Bruce

[JTR70]

Steering shaft changes.

While prepping one for installation I noticed some subtle differences between my early T1 units and a known T2 unit from a '58 coupe.


Bullet connectors found on the wire leads on the T2 shaft while both of my '56 versions lacked these ends.


Both of my T1 units came with the collars for the optional steering wheel lock where the later T2 version was no longer outfitted for the option. When this was eliminated?? Who knows...

Horn contacts are identical and overall length unchanged for the later ZF steering box. Same part used throughout with only two notable differences.
Justin