Carrera book comments and questions

[Carrera GT]

It is odd that a view or agenda on one hand first saying-supporting that 05 never left Europe - then on the other hand, just days later, providing photos of 05 in Brazil in more than one race.

That adds a distracting level of confusion in this discussion and does lead to frustrations in trying to be objective with the factual documentation.

Michael Doyle

[Type550]

Hi Steve,

Like yourself, I am trying to confirm the series of events. I asked Jens to send me a copy of the correspondence and he said he didn't know of it. I sent him a copy of one of the letters you posted and this was his response:

I do not know this. I simply have no idea where this could have been. Then Steve should tell me where he might have seen this

For something so important I find it frustrating that they are not forthcoming or even willing to look if it is in the archives. They should have the complete correspondence.

I am not making any accusations that the letters are falsified in any way, just incomplete.

Andrew

[Type550]

Jack, you have a good insight - yes, the 550s had both short and long range tanks and this is a high possibility of the height differences.

Michael,

here is the list of races I believe 550-05 raced in:
3 Jan 1954 - Rio de Janeiro GP - Brazil - Hans Stuck
10 Jan 1954 - Sao Paulo GP - Brazil - Hans Stuck
25 April 1954 - Montlhery Coupe du Printemps - France - Gonzague Olivier / Auguste Veuillet
8 May 1954 - Sable-Solesmes Rallye - France - Auguste Veuillet
23 May 1954 - Dieppe Rallye - France - Gonzague Olivier
12 Sept 1954 - Tour de France - France - Annie Bousquet / Marie Claire Beaulieu
19 Sept 1954 - Montlhery Coupe d'Automne - France - Annie Bousquet
25 Feb 1955 - Agadir International Circuit - Morocco - Annie Bousquet / Gilberte Thirion
17 June 1956 - Interlagos Centaur Motor Club - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins/ JCT (Fritz) D'Orey
29 Sept 1956 - Interlagos Automotive Club of Brazil - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
12 Jan 1957 - GP Sao Paulo - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
20 Jan 1957 - 1000km Buenos Aires - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
7 April 1957 - Interlagos Automotive Club of Brazil (test race) - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
23 June 1957 - Interlagos Centaur Motor Club Race- Brazil - JCT (Fritz) D'Orey
8 Dec 1957 - GP Rio de Janeiro Quinta da Boa Vista - Brazil - Francisco (Chico) Landi

[Type550]

Early prototypes had a short range tank and usually space for a spare.



Some were interchanged with the long range tank which became standard on the customer Spyders.

[Carrera GT]

Jack, you have a good insight - yes, the 550s had both short and long range tanks and this is a high possibility of the height differences.

Michael,

here is the list of races I believe 550-05 raced in:
3 Jan 1954 - Rio de Janeiro GP - Brazil - Hans Stuck
10 Jan 1954 - Sao Paulo GP - Brazil - Hans Stuck
25 April 1954 - Montlhery Coupe du Printemps - France - Gonzague Olivier / Auguste Veuillet
8 May 1954 - Sable-Solesmes Rallye - France - Auguste Veuillet
23 May 1954 - Dieppe Rallye - France - Gonzague Olivier
12 Sept 1954 - Tour de France - France - Annie Bousquet / Marie Claire Beaulieu
19 Sept 1954 - Montlhery Coupe d'Automne - France - Annie Bousquet
25 Feb 1955 - Agadir International Circuit - Morocco - Annie Bousquet / Gilberte Thirion
17 June 1956 - Interlagos Centaur Motor Club - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins/ JCT (Fritz) D'Orey
29 Sept 1956 - Interlagos Automotive Club of Brazil - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
12 Jan 1957 - GP Sao Paulo - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
20 Jan 1957 - 1000km Buenos Aires - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
7 April 1957 - Interlagos Automotive Club of Brazil (test race) - Brazil - Christian (Bino) Heins
23 June 1957 - Interlagos Centaur Motor Club Race- Brazil - JCT (Fritz) D'Orey
8 Dec 1957 - GP Rio de Janeiro Quinta da Boa Vista - Brazil - Francisco (Chico) Landi

Andrew,

Thank you for posting these races that are deemed to be a history of 05.

What is an interesting example to point out is this 1954 race:

"25 April 1954 - Montlhery Coupe du Printemps - France - Gonzague Olivier / Auguste Veuillet"

The above 25 April 1954 date appears to conflict with the letter from Herr Kern at Porsche KG to Hans von Stuck dated 12 April 1954 wherein Kern states:

"There is no need to make payment of the receipt motor vehicle document-dependent, since [the buyer] has for a few months had this vehicle."

In reading all the analysis taking place, it begs to ask how can 05 be in two places (2 countries) at once?

This coupled with the Herr Kern letter of 17 February 1954 confirming the motor conversion parts were sent to the German Embassy in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil for pick up by VW representative, Bruno Tress.

This seems to confirm the vehicle has in fact been in Brazil since Stuck first raced it 3 January & 10 January 1954.

Michael Doyle

[vhelmle]

Hello Everyone,

Steve Heinrichs has asked me to add one additional document that we found today that may help to clarify the 550-05 in Brazil in Spring 1954. It is very difficult to read and is a telegram from Stuck to Porsche, but the recipient is unclear. It does link Fasanello to the Brazil car, we think 550-05.



German Version of Telegram:

English Version of Telegram:

NOTES:
Fasanello was in a car crash, but it was not an accident that involved 550-05 as far as we can tell. Fasanello did indicate that because of the accident he was unable to respond promptly to the payment questions.

We are aware that we can not prove with documentation that 550-05 was in Brazil after June 1954. However, we are confident that 05 was certainly in Brazil during the Spring of 1954 as evidenced by the letters between Stuck and Kern. This means that 550-07 is the car in France.

The fan shroud channel and single grille is a problem for 550-07, of course. However, it is as likely as not that when the team removed the buckel, they replaced the rear with a single grille cover that included the fan shroud channel. This would make it look a lot like 550-05.

We do not dismiss the recessed filler cap. It is recessed in all the photos of 550-07. The photos of 550-05 show the raised filler cap in 1954 January Brazil races and later in 1955-56 photo of the car with Jorge Lettry.

Our most important question is this, "How can 550-05 be in both Brazil at Sr. Tress' garage and in France at the same time, from February 1954 to at least June 1954?" If 550-05 is in France--which 550 is in Brazil?

Toward resisting confirmation bias.

Vietta

[Type550]

I am at a point where I can't move forward and every final question posted now is 'how can one car be in 2 places at the same time?' If the car was on trial, I would say the photographic evidence would be enough to put the car in a specific location(s) at a specific date. If Porsche removed the buckel from 550-07 and reverted to a fixed rear for the track testing, yes, that car was highly likely to be used for the following races. The photos show it was replaced with a hinged rear - why would they reconfigure it again as the hinged rear was the final design Porsche continued with for 550-06 and beyond?

We do not know if Stuck was an honest man and was trying to string Porsche along because he couldn't sell the car. We don't have any documentation that the sale actually went through, and if it did stay in Brazil, why isn't there any record of someone racing the latest and fastest car in the class for a whole 2 years there??

I would love to resolve it either way with proven evidence, but at the moment I am still basing the location of 550-05 on my findings.

[Type550]

550-01 raced in the 1954 1000km Buenos Aires race in January - maybe Stuck was trying to sell that car - did Jaroslav Juhan actually own it at that time, or was it still owned by Porsche...?

[Type550]

During 1953 Jaroslav Juhan was appointed the official representative of Porsche sports cars for Latin America territory. He had ordered two 550s for Brazil 550-01 and 550-02. He raced 550-01 in the Nov 1953 Carrera Panamericana, Dec 1953 GP Mexico Guadalupe and the Jan 1954 1000km Buenos Aires. During these races the 550s were probably still owned by Porsche and seeing their policy was to sell them after the races, Fasanello might have wanted to buy 550-01 and Stuck helped facilitate the sale.

The next race entry was John Schmidt at the 1954 12 h Sebring on 7th March, but the race was a 'did not start' for 550-01 due to 'accident in practice', and the pilot John Schmidt ended up racing in a Jaguar, so obviously he did not own 550-01. The letter from Stuck dated 5th March discusses the spyder was involved in an accident - could this be the spyder he was referring to? The next race for 550-01 was Nov 1954 at the Carrera Panamericana piloted by Salvador Lopez Chavez.

[Carrera_The_Kid]

The letter from Stuck dated 5th March discusses the spyder was involved in an accident - could this be the spyder he was referring to? The next race for 550-01 was Nov 1954 at the Carrera Panamericana piloted by Salvador Lopez Chavez.

In that case the letter would have been written later in the day after to accident as practice was on friday the 5'th. Was Stuck present at the race? Judging from the correspondence he was likely not. In that case he would have to been made aware of the accident via telegram most likely.

On a different note, Thanks Andrew and Steven for this fascinating discussion. The time both of you have spend on spyders in general and this topic in specific continue to amaze me. My hats off to both of you

[Type550]

The telegram could have been sent on the day from Fasanello to Stuck after the accident, then Stuck wrote the letter to Kern...

[Carrera GT]

The letter from Stuck dated 5th March discusses the spyder was involved in an accident - could this be the spyder he was referring to? The next race for 550-01 was Nov 1954 at the Carrera Panamericana piloted by Salvador Lopez Chavez.

In that case the letter would have been written later in the day after to accident as practice was on friday the 5'th. Was Stuck present at the race? Judging from the correspondence he was likely not. In that case he would have to been made aware of the accident via telegram most likely.

On a different note, Thanks Andrew and Steven for this fascinating discussion. The time both of you have spend on spyders in general and this topic in specific continue to amaze me. My hats off to both of you

Joris,

As I read this correspondence (the letters, telegram, and these discussions) the "accident" referred to was Fasanello's incident in a passenger car - not the 550. Fasanello was in possession of the 550, but he personally did not race it, others did for him - according to Andrew.

Here are some quotes to refer to:

Stuck to Kern letter 5 March 1954:

"As you can see from the enclosed telegram from the purchaser of the Spider, he had an accident and has [promised?] payment on the 15th."

Description of Telegram:

"Fasanello was in a car crash, but it was not an accident that involved 550-05 as far as we can tell. Fasanello did indicate that because of the accident he was unable to respond promptly to the payment questions."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Andrew,

It is most important, but perhaps you overlooked this:

The Kern-Porsche KG letter of 31 May 1954 (see 27983) appears to state (by Kern) that "Fasanello" has bought your Spyder (the "Stuck" car) which was 05 (not 01) and the title documents transfer was completed. A prior letter on 16 April stated Fasanello was to pay Cash to Tress (the VW rep.) on behalf of Porsche - he was to then wire the funds to Switzerland.

Clearly reading (and comprehending) the letters and the confirming telegram are understandable "facts" that I can read and see where the 05 car is.

And as this Porsche KG 31 May letter now pushes the timeline even further out into to June, July, and August 1954 - where does it locate this former Hans Stuck, now Fasanello 05 Spyder? ...looks like in Brazil to me.


Michael Doyle

[Carrera_The_Kid]

[Carrera GT]

Here is a photo of Hans Stuck in his Porsche 550 Spyder in Brazil. What's the Race & Timeline?

Michael Doyle

[Steve Heinrichs]

05 was sent with pushrod.

Steve