The Resurrection of Foam Car - 63 T6B

[John Pierce]

Fantastic ideas to shrink that down. Thanks for sharing.

[Jack Staggs]

Phil, I could use your 2.25" collar tool when you are done with it. I have a car that needs a little help in the same area as yours. Let me know what you want for it, if you are willing to let it go.

[JTR70]

Your very welcome Phil, glad I was able to help. Man did that get shipped fast. Great to see that bearing cage work out for you as well. I think you're just fine if the arm fits a touch tighter than the others; as long as its not binding as you cycle it through. I'm sure you'd feel much better with some confirmation from Bruce or Jack on that though. That collar clamp idea is a fantastic remedy. I'm filing that one away to long term memory for sure, thanks for sharing that.
Justin

[Phil Planck]

Jack
The collar tool is yours, no charge. Your help on this forum and 912bbs is worth way more than that tool. I also have 2 new INA 20mm needle bearings if you need them. I filed the mating joints round, as they were digging in to the tube a little. Also greased the tube before clamping. I assume I can ship to your shop address?

Justin
I was surprised also that the arm showed up so fast. Perfect timing on my end. The arm will free fall, so I think it will be okay.

Phil

[bbspdstr]

Learning from others is what it's all about, helping each other.

I'll chime in while admitting I have grown spoiled and lazy...er,I mean efficient and practical with this tool:



It's one of four of the go/no go solid steel pins for the Celette front fixtures. If it fits, so will any bearing from after the bushed VW Pre-A through the C.
If it doesn't, there is something wrong in the tube. If the pin fits and the fixture can't, there is a bent tube.
There are three 356s in the shop now which this tooling exposed as having bad torsion bar tubes. One was too obvious. Even the double-row encased bearings were crushed in a hard low front hit somewhere in it's history.

I had a P-70, loaned it and it was sold just before the borrower went underground....not literally, but he got into financial trouble with his Porsche business and a lot of other people's parts and tools were sold to try and keep it afloat. That lasted a very short time and then he sank and disappeared anyway. A lesson to be learned. It was sold to a well known P-guy who then died before I could get it back, so where my loaned special tools are now I cannot know.

I now send the arms to Eric Wills to check on his P-70. Like the other bigger jig, they fit or they don't. Crash damage or not, they all should be checked when removed.

As for the original bearing(s) (or any) in the front, the grease can cause drag. Fitting is very tight or too tight. I get them clean and inspected and spin the bearings before reuse. If they are removed carefully and found to have no damage, they can have a very long life. Most have made it 50+ years by now and only external damage seems to affect them.

Bruce

[bbspdstr]

Speaking of Eric Wills, he came up to my shop to remove most all of my collection of hard-core engine parts last week. What he didn't want went into a recycling barrel. I noticed visitors taking pictures into that container and realized I should take one myself. It's all gone now.

(OK, I admit I dragged the gears and spacer off the crank, as they appeared to be good.)

[Phil Planck]

Bruce
For future reference, what is the diameter/s of your go/no go gauge. I think I got the ID shrunk down to 51.5mm, which may be a hair tight. The old bearing from Justin drove in with what I would call a "normal" interference. Could be that I am not perfectly aligned with the inner bushing, causing the drag. I am going to do some more investigation. I talked to Vic and he does not have the P70 tool, or whatever number it is for checking for bent arms. He said he gets the shaft horizontal in a vice and must have a long rod to put in the link pin hole to see if it is level there. Rotate 180 and do it again.

Sorry to see you are pairing down, but there comes a time.

Phil

[JOP]

Phil,
You did a good job and easy instruction for anybody to follow IF needed
I enclosed a picture of the tool & mm.
JOP

[Phil Planck]

Ah, 51.7 +-.05, so I was too tight at 51.5. One of the tips on allmetalshaping was to weld a large ball bearing to a puller type rod, in this case at least 51.65mm, to round out and shape the hole. I had no patience to try to find that bearing.

Thanks for scanning in that drawing JOP

Phil

[bbspdstr]

Phil, you asked "For future reference, what is the diameter/s of your go/no go gauge."

The drawing from JOP is what the fixture pin(s) are, but on the full side. 45.55, 51.7-and-a-little and the outer end doesn't count due to the holes in the fixture dictating it's (thinner, 54mm) diameter.

I got slight variances with different tries, but these are stout and 'good enough,' not "precision machined."

I know that I always remove the bearing(s) because my guys are not always quite so careful and the tool I use either makes the bearing slide out easily or with great difficulty, but they always come out!

I reinstall as you describe. Gently start, assure evenness and then smack 'em with a hammer on a 2x4 a few times until seated flush to the tube. I've never noticed any difference in how the trailing arms react, so I only assume an exact ID for the tube end is not that important. Round, yes...exact, no!

We ARE having fun now, right?

Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Bruce, good point about the fixture being slightly undersize to avoid an interference fit, such as the bearing requires. It could be quite difficult to extract the fixture under those conditions.
Question: How far out of spec have you had success straightening a bent tube? I have a lower tube that is an inch back, or more! I'm considering making an extra long fixture, using some of the dimensions generously supplied by JOP. I'm thinking that I may be able to pull a little, then push the fixture in further, and pull again repeatedly. Heat? I'm out of my field here. Help.
My current dilemma is a car equipped with Rudge wheels that have not been removed in quite a while on a beautifully restored car. The spinners are impossibly tight. I have concentrated on just one for now, but have tried the others with no success. One of the issues is direction of rotation for removal. Brit cars have one piece spinners that are clearly marked "undo". Rudge spinners have replaceable center caps on the spinners that are marked "auf", which means "on" in English, to my understanding. IIRC, right hand threads belong on the right hand side of the car, and left threads on the left side, but over time, replacement drums/spinners could have been fitted to inappropriate locations. To add to confusion, I have had the pleasure to work on a car that had 3 center caps indicating clockwise for installation (auf), and one that indicated counter-clockwise, all switched around, and tight on top of that! I have access to an agricultural design knock of removal tool that works pretty well, but no joy, just bent the 6' arm, trying either direction. I am currently working on the right rear, turning counter-clockwise. I fashioned a sacrificial chunk of lead to a handle to lay on the spinner ear, and struck it at least 80 times full force with a 4# single jack(scary) and achieved a rotation at the hub of appox 1 1/2", marked by tape. Opposite direction yielded little movement, but some. So far no damage to paint/body work, rim or knockoff on these $10,000 each fun parts. I have ordered a 5# lead alloy hammer that will arrive tomorrow.
Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi (RIP R2D2 Kenny Baker)
Sorry to hijack this tread. Feel free to delete or move to a new topic, Justin

[JOP]

Jack,
To move 12-13mm in a bent tube will do some alternations to that metal...streching and even "bending" IF you move it uncontrolled...and even controlled it can go bad.

Is it not easier to do a repair by cutting away the the "bad" part and get a refurbished part to weld in?
Keep us posted

JOP

[roy mawbey]

Guys,

Interesting thread Phil has. Hope I never have to need a P70. Special tools.I learn something everyday. About 45 years ago I went to the London main agent and bought a P?? for the removal of the Zenith carbs on my A. I was sold a 14mm spanner which I still have but after blaming the agent for so many years that it should have been 12mm, I saw info just the day that my 14mm fits the Solex carbs. I probably just asked for a 356A spanner not defining its year. Never knew then it was a T2 !!

Bruce, one hundred years from now that collection of pistons and parts etc, if found in a box would be devoured by 356 collectors, if of course petrol is still available for them to run!!

I have now my own modified special Zenith carb spanner that works well.

Learning more and more from this great thread.

Roy

[bbspdstr]

Hi Jack (this thread?)

Seriously, 33 BO aside, all "frame" work is always case-by-case. I was taught to "think as if I was Superman" and if I had the strength, where would I grab to undo the deformation, how would I hold it, etc. It's intuitive after examination, but the strength must come from special tools.

I wish I had time now to locate pictures of front t-bar tube pulls and replacements, as those are all too common now. One we just did was typical in that the tube was swayed back on one side. I used to have a business neighbor, now greatly missed for such work, who had the best and latest equipment and knowledge for pulling autobody damage, as he taught newbies or old guard journeymen on newer products as a representative of a large manufacturing corporation.

Eric Wills had given me two inserts for the tube ends, more gesundt than the Celette pins. We'd insert those in the end of any affected tube, counter on an amazing bench with straps and chains anywhere needed and tug until a lazer told us to stop. Jim's machinery could have torn a unibody car apart, but it was so controllable that tenths of a MM were achievable. Good equipment and knowledge are the key ingredients. Heat usually helps, too.

If the tubes are clean and bare, a good eye can pick up straightness. Then it's just getting the ends where they belong. That's where dedicated fixture benches come in.

We have also had to replace front tubes if they are kinked. Much, much more work. I see twisted tubes that had the lower tube go back and the upper one stay where it belonged and those are easier to fix when cut loose. I have also thought about making a solid bar that could be driven through a bare tube (with heat applied to the tube as needed) to enforce straightness, but never got around to it.

Still, it's all about money and accessible spare parts. Now, it seems inverse to when I began fixing 356s. No money, lots of "parts cars" or NOS.

About Rudge wheels: I have been in your situation a few times. Trust the center lock direction arrow with "Auf". Yes, "auf dem Weg" is "on the way"..."on" being the key word, but "Auf" was used by Porsche to mean "open. "An" is also an "on" variant, "Zu" or "Ab" being "off" or "closed." Confused? Me too. "Sich abschrauben lassen" is to "unscrew." Now I'm more confused after looking in a German-English dictionary.

I made a "special tool" out of a chunk of 4" steel tube that I cut notches in for the ears (with plastic padding) and welded a strap across the other end with as big a nut as I could find that took a huge socket on my 3/4" drive breaker bar...which then often had a "cheater bar" added and that always worked....with the wheel/tire on and chocked and the brakes on by way of an assistant. Oh, cursing has always helped me when things got to this!

OK, here is THE tool! http://www.germanrudgewheels.com/en/product/prs-disk-wheel-porsche/

I have lead and copper hammers, but find they make a mess of often previously cracked ears on the "knock off" hub, especially after years of having been hit, dressed and rechromed. I had some nice new solid steel versions a few years ago that one could really wail on, good repro. Can't remember from where they originated.

The forward direction of each side was to do an auto-tighten by way of braking, with LHT on the right side and RHT on the left. I just remember "left is right and right is left." Anyway, those centers are fine threads and possibly could have been buggered by an unwitting dimwitted gorilla...so all I can do is send condolences.

Good luck,
Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Jack
No problem veering the conversation. We all learn a lot.

Bruce
How about a picture or 2 of your bearing puller. After "driving" the C control arm home it still rotates, but much harder. I think I have found a large ball bearing to round out and size the tube, but will need to remove Justin's bearing, that I was in a hurry to try. It appears the inner 20mm of the bearing surface is the problem. Possibly why someone went to the C arm with just 1 bearing.
Phil