The Resurrection of Foam Car - 63 T6B

[JTR70]

Pretty cool find Phil. Man, that thing has been in there for quite some time. This reminded me of the metal scrap yard next to my Uncles shop in Utah. A big outfit which has literally hundreds of scrap cars go through their shredder on a weekly basis. What was interesting is after they are shredded there is a sifting process which isolates out all the coins that were in the cars and apparently these coins amount to several thousand dollars worth a year. Pretty nice bonus money...

[Phil Planck]

Not doing much on Foam Car(except getting measurements for John) aside from slowly working on the transaxle. But, a recent post on the Registry site about a member who's hood flew open got me to thinking about why this seems to be so prevalent on at least the T6 bodies. I emailed Bruce on the subject and he had some good theories. As I worked on hood latches during my career at GM I thought I would start investigating for clues. The first thing I noticed on Foam Car was that the safety latch appeared a little too far reward. Looking at the latch receptacle, it did not appear square to the car. I laid a straight edge parallel to the rear edge of the catch and it contacted the hood opening further outboard on the right side compared to the left side(5/8" difference by one measurement method). Bruce mentioned accident damage not repaired correctly as one possible cause. Looking at the first picture below you can see that the flange off the front of the hood opening is bent inward at the right side more than the left side:




This view from farther away shows the slight cant of the latch receptacle with the left side more forward than the right side. A little hard to see, but it is there




Hopefully some of you will take a look at the flange on your hood inner to see what type of angle it is at. Mine is not a right angle, but more open. If I made it square, that would move the safety catch into a better position for full engagement in case the primary latch fails.

This is step 1. Next step is trying to figure out how the primary latch can fail.

Phil

[JTR70]

Hey Phil, You must be referring to that guy who's hood came open on the freeway. Thinking about all the hood and cowl damage that would cause sure sends a shiver down your spine. Makes me wish I didn't think that those leather GT hood straps were so heinous looking or I'd mount a pair of them on but I do so I won't. I can take a photo of mine even though its an A version. There is one thing that gives me great confidence that the secondary catch would stop my hood if it were to disengage at speed: the length of the "J" hook is now showing contact wear along its entire forward profile telling me that it is in constant forward and loaded contact with the little tongue plate in there. So in my mind there is very a very good chance it will perform its job if god forbid that ever happened....

[Don C]

Being new to the 356 world I made a comment on the Registry that my '65 latch faces forward. I was informed that the "C" models had that change. Wonder if that was to solve the hood opening problem?

[Phil Planck]

Don
Thanks for the C picture. At least the wind is blowing the secondary latch toward engage instead of unengaged on the T6B. So I need pictures of T6B latch brackets.
Justin
Good observation on the secondary engagement - thanks

Restoration Design makes 3 different "latch panels", A-T5B, T6B, and T6C. Here is their picture of the T6B. Looks like the flange is a right angle. But we all know how repro parts can be.




Phil

[bbspdstr]

In 50 years of driving 356s, I have (thankfully) never encountered a hood "blowing up" all the way, but have had a few I've driven SEEM to be latched but when I'd get out of that 356, the lid was on it's safety. That is an adjustment issue and therefore the MAIN issue here.

Many things now discussed as 'issues' were not at all in question when the cars were new(-er), including latches. While I never owned a new 356, some I had were only a few years old, like a '65 in '69 or a '61 in '66. Even my first Speedster, a '58 in '65, was still a 'virgin' in regard to originality. The hoods closed easily. You knew from sound and feel that it was secure, but those who owned their 356s longer would gently suggest that a newbie should tug on the hood handle just to be sure.

Hey, 6v works fine if the electrical system is 'like new.' Same with drum brakes, single-circuit master cylinder, etc. The problem is that components become compromised with age or damage (or both) and if not dealt with beyond what some term as "faith"......bad things happen.

I think hood latches are on a list of 'safety' items, if only the fronts. Checking is easy, really. Put some masking tape across the lower receiver and gently lower the hood until the point of the upper makes a dent. Is it centered, like a bulls-eye? Is the pin straight, is the spring free and unrusted? Does it need a shim to bring back original pressure?

Put tape around the upper to reference it's position and remove it. Put it in the lower and see how that engages. Remove burrs and lube everything, even remove the pull wire and lube that, better even if it's a replacement. Blow out the tube through which the wire passes and no one has cleaned out since new, (even if it's been "restored.")

Have someone pull the knob under the dash and you or a more fluent 356er catch the upper latch when it's released and see if the safety wants to stop it. (Wear gloves)

The early lower latches mounted with very little adjustment, the C had none. It's all in the upper. Is the special threaded pin bent? Is the spring and cup "like new." It's usually a combination of many little things that make it go bad.

Justin, I really don't like the hood straps either but the latest owner of 84255 did, so I had to install them for him.

It's the same outer lid from new, still, but with a new complete inner frame and actual hinges. It had been lightened by removal or modification of what's unseen and only some copper tubing held it where the hinges usually lived and a racing hood pin held the front. When I had it, it frequently saw 120 mph and no sign of trying to take off. Later, I added a period-correct handle just to be...a handle...and it didn't add much weight and looked fine, still with the pin doing the holding.





BTW, Phil, I got a picture of the (gray?) T-6 B with the folded lid from Rich Shilling, also with 356 C woes himself at the WCH from a bad generator and a 'thunk' underneath rear that MAY have been a differential or a shock bushing, but he wasn't gambling and had it towed. You see him? I find it ironic that the 356s and we are aging at the same rate but the cars generally look better.

-Bruce

[tperazzo]

Hi Phil,
I have very recently been playing with my C latch while mocking up the hood fit. It took me a while to figure out the latching design which is actually pretty clever! Well except for the part that it didn't protect my hood and cowl as it was certainly damaged from a fly up, ha ha.

The C design is "fail safe", meaning that the latch assembly must have cable tension to work correctly. Initially I was trying to use a piece of bailing wire out to the wheel area and it doesn't work. So if a latch cable were to break the hood would release. Good if you need access, but bad if you're driving at speed.

My latch was really gummed up with years of grime, so basic maintenance is key for this thing to work correctly.

I hope I didn't scare you from tackling your nose, ha ha. We all hope to see more of the foam car story soon.
Take

[John Pierce]

Hi Phil,

That latch is original on my B T-6 and the flange is at 90 degrees as shown in the RD image.

JP

[Phil Planck]

Thanks for all of the input Bruce, Tom & John. My latch is really gummed up and pulling the cable and cleaning out the tube is a great idea. Tom, Foam Cars nose is coming off, after I get the door opening welding buttoned up.

Phil

[Jack Staggs]

l

A close examination of the associated parts for the pre C safety hood latch reveals a design defect. The tongue that the lever, or hook, clips over is relieved on each corner, which will allow the hook to release if the hook is anywhere near that location. A cursory examination of the hook mounting attachment on the hood plate will show considerable slop from side to side, or left to right if you will. So when the hood suddenly releases under speed, the hood jumps up and catches air, increasing the load on the safety latch. The hook then works from side to side until it finds the reliefs on the edges of the tongue and releases the hood. The cure would be to fill the reliefs ( with welding, JB weld, or other means) so the grip, regardless of the orientation of the hook to the tongue, will remain consistent.

[Phil Planck]

Great observation Jack. Thanks for adding that to the list. Yes, my upper safety catch has a fair amount of side to side movement.

Phil Planck

[Phil Planck]

Here are today's hood latch findings. Probably more than you ever wanted to know about the T6B latch, but, someone's got to figure this out again(as it probably has been done before). I removed both the latch and the striker, but before doing so I checked the relationship of the striker to the latch. The striker(pin) was not square to the latch. You can check this on your T6B by lifting the hood up to the safety catch and looking in from the side. I put my new rechargalbe, led shop lamp in the hood compartment so I could see better. Tried to take a picture, but after 2 attempts gave up. But here is what you will be looking at:




On Foam Car the striker pin was off by at least 5 degrees. There is no adjustment to correct this. The striker threads into a nut on the striker plate that is welded in at an angle. You can see that in this pic:



Looking at the latch, I could see that only one of the two catches was contacting the striker. You can see the shiny portion in one of the 2 pictures below where it was contacting:






I next inserted the striker into the latch at about a 5 degree angle off square and on of the two catches engaged. By jiggling the latch around while trying to maintain the 5 degree angle I was able to pull the striker out. These next two pics show the scissor mechanism fully engaged and unengaged on the side that did not catch:





Notice the sharper angle in one picture compared to the other. The other concerning think about this design is that with very mild finger pressure I could move that "scissor" mechanism to unlatch one side. Note the big shield welded over the other side of the scissor mechanism. That is on the inboard side where obstacles could come in contact and easily unlatch the inboard catch. This "feature" appears to be allowed by the short bar at the end of the mechanism that the release cable attaches to. If that were not there, I don't think you could only release one side.
Tom Perazzo, hopefully you can add a picture of a T6C latch for comparison.(edited - Tom, found some nice pictures on the internet, what a different solution - so why would Porsche do this? Req'd for disc brakes?)

[Phil Planck]

Not sure how many pictures I can post so am continuing. The bracket that the latch mounts to is at an angle of 9.5 degrees compared to horizontal longitudinals at the door opening. Hopefully I can get some other measurements(John?).



The bracket is also cracked open on the drivers side:


Some sloppy weld repair on the passenger side:


There is an angle on the inner panel that the bracket is welded to that can sort of be seen in this picture. It is along the bottom of the unpainted clear metal area under the bracket. Is this "normal"?


In order for me to get the striker square to the latch, the bracket angle will have to change, or the welded nut in the stiker plate will have to be removed and welded at a different angle.

But right now I am also considering going to a completely different latch setup. Stay tuned.

One more thing - the weld that holds the shield I referred to above on the latch prevents the latch from lying flat on the bracket. The 4 rivet heads on the latch should all contact the bracket, but can't due to the proud weld. The blue line is the overlap of the latch to bracket:



Phil

[JTR70]

Thanks for taking the time to run though this Phil. Being that your car is a T6 I was surprised to see it still has the early A version type mechanism and upper catch. Like I've said before B&C cars are not my strong suit but I'm learning.. Thanks!
BTW: I've gone up to 20 photos on a single post.

[Phil Planck]

Justin
Just checked my 55 PreA and it has the same latch and striker, but the striker pin is not at an angle like the T6B. The secondary latch catch is also a better design(closed at the ends). The striker pin on the PreA is also not square to the latch, and you can see wear marks on only one catch, the forward one in this case where on Foam Car it is the rear one.
Phil