1964 Bali Blue SC Coupe Restoration Project

[JTR70]

Tom, check out the video by Hagerty in this thread: http://www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/40578-The-rust-solution.html

[Red911]

Thanks Justin,

From what I know about the 356 dipping process, it is only offered in Germany at Porsche Classic. That is one of the videos that got me thinking about trying to get corrosion fighting through out the entire car where it would never rust again. I used POR 15, but only on a rotisserie, and you cannot get the POR 15 inside where it counts to prevent rust. E coat does cover all the areas.

On my posts, I am wondering what others think about the e coat dipping process for future restorations. It is a game changer for our efforts in my humble opinion.

Tom

[JTR70]

Tom,
Since you asked, in my humble opinion this falls under the category of "if it makes you feel good then do it". Don't get me wrong the parts look gorgeous coming out of the vat but I have heard all the horror stories of car bodies that where dipped then years later only to have the old solvents leaching out from deep within the frame. As far as the E-coat coverage its great but again the level of rust and decay we are dealing with today is the result of exposure to the elements that will NEVER be allowed to happen to them again; barring the apocalypse of course. These cars are highly coveted toys that won't be daily drivers, won't see salted down roads and certainly won't be left outside for any significant length of time. They might get a little wet by a rain shower or two but it will be a rare thing. Speaking as a regular enthusiast my coupe will never spend more than a few hours at a time outside of its covered and protected space. It would sit in my living room before I left it outside like it used to exist all those years ago. So my point with all this rambling is that it amounts to an unnecessary expense given what the car will actually be doing and exposed to in its next life. But yes, if you're going to drive and treat your 356 like it was 1973 again then it would be good insurance but water always finds a way no matter.
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Tom,

Reading the comments I have to agree really with Justin. No doubt at all, the time spent to rust proof the 356 is really worth while at a sensible price. True the innermost areas where its so hard to reach or apply needs thought but, it seems to me if the welding done and the existing metal work is sound then will your car ever as Justin implies really be used as it was probably 54 years ago?

I saw the rusty 356 cars in the mid sixties when I was looking to buy. I knew then they rusted, and saw the damage done by our UK weather. I bought one not rust free but compared to others it was in good condition. A further 8 years done the road in the 70's I started the welding. Took over a year. And I made sure anything I could coat I would to prevent it happening again.

But... my driving habits over the next 40 years changed. I became a cloud watcher before the rise in prices. I used the car in the dry although year round. Still do that and I can say my welding attempts and coverings, have lasted really well. My car always passed ministry yearly tests although now its no longer required.

The car is always garaged but seems fine on the underside.If you intend to drive it anytime anywhere in any weather for years then maybe but, surely its expensive this E coating?

Roy

[Red911]

Thanks Justin and Roy for your comments.

I can agree with Roy as the SWB restoration I finished 12 years ago, is still rust free and I store it in the winter in a Car Capsule for the winter time to keep the air circulating and the mice out of the car. Works great, no rust.

Justin, I read this about the dipping process. Read the FAQ's as it said this was a myth if the dipping was done properly. Additionally, if the car is e coated, with all the dipping done (12 or so) there would not be any residue left of the alkaline dipping process.

http://www.metaldipping.com/faq.php

I will probably try the e coating after I finish my doors and throw in the gas tank and engine cover too. I had the doors and engine cover dipped, so why not e coat them. We all know most of the treatments for gas tanks is a chemical coating on the inside that may or may not flake off, or buy a new gas tank for probably the same or more than the e coating. It will take a long time to fix my doors at my current pace, but when I get ready to e coat, I will report that to the board.

My thought is to e coat just takes away the worries about internal rust in places the sun don't shine. I will be able to sleep better at night with it done.

As Justin said, "if it makes you feel good, do it." That works for me.

Tom

[bbspdstr]

I try to keep up, but in reading this but not the FAQ link, I will give my own experience with dipping...that method is fine if done by the book. If the company goes cheap or cheats on one bath, it's a real problem.

A Redi-strip franchise was not far from me, closer than my first foray into dipping in Virginia, and the first work Redi-Strip did for me was great. Then, one big tank or another became stale, but the expense of the chemical upkeep became too much for the operator to handle and they decided to forego the 'exact' formulas in each tank, 'once in a while.' The neutralizing tank potency and that of the final rinse of a water-soluble anti-flash-back solution was most critical. It became a crap-shoot, so I discontinued that process and that company. They eventually closed down.

Rick Mullin recently tried a dipper quite a distance from our area, but it is "guaranteed" to be benign when complete, with all sorts of instructions for continuation of the handling and finalizing and in what order. It was not inexpensive, but very professional and Rick is happy with that job on a SWB 911S he is doing.

I always did early-on what Rick did recently, but I learned by failed attempts, not from an established protocol. I braced open 356s, as I knew there was lifting involved in the process. I cut away all rusted areas that were to be replaced, I drilled vent holes in the highest part of the closed panels (even a roof) with the assumption that no turning in a tank would be done...and I always took a few cans of WD40 along on pick-up to spray as a precaution against random travel moisture, even rain when on an open trailer (hey, I foolishly believed the weather forecast)....and I demanded (nicely) that I be called immediately when their process was finished on my 356 (or whatever I had given them). I then learned not to send any closed parts that I could not fully neutralize myself...then I quit the process altogether.

The early dipping had the worst gnarly white growths coming from overlapped seams. I learned to poke and pry between the spot welds to fix that result fairly well, but I did a lot of hand work and rinsed with a lot of lacquer thinner to still realize I was always gambling. "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is."

-Bruce

[Red911]

Thanks Bruce for your additional comments on dipping.

Perhaps, I have not been clear about both dipping and my newly discovered e coating process for whole cars.

My thoughts were as follows.
1. Get rid of the rust prior by alkaline dipping to welding metal. Forget about what the end result of dipping will be. Try to find a capable, honest dipping shop.

2. E coat the part, or the whole chassis. The process of e coating will remove any vestige of the alkaline dipping, so all the concerns expressed here will not bother the chassis in the long term.

To accomplish this as a test, I will e coat my two doors after I fix the door skins and bottoms. At the same time alkaline dip the engine cover and gas tank. Since it will take years for me to finish the chassis welding, these parts will be protected.

Tom

[Red911]

Hello all,

Since I live in Rhode Island by the Atlantic Ocean, we just got Spring last week. I have been busy with yard work, so now that is done and the chipper has been paid to truck away all the thorns, I can get back to the doors.

Thanks to this board and the gentle comments, I have decided to start on the passenger door to make sure that door fits. I learned that you should install the window frame to be assured of the proper fit prior to beginning. Looks good.



Rear gaps are pretty good.



Front door panel leaves a lot of love, but gaps will be possible with luck.



Window frame fits well too.



The door bottom will be replaced now. I have a Restoration Design door bottom and lower door skin. But, first a lot of very rusty metal needs to be removed and the door bottom attached after much repair work.

Here is the door bumper with the normal crushed and torn metal.



At the other end, it is no better.



More in a moment.

Tom

[Red911]

Back again with the removal of the rusty door bottom parts.

Rounding the corner from the bottom, we find more Swiss cheese to replace.



A closer look at the soon to be loved door stop. I liked Tom's idea to weld in a reinforcement part, so that will be done.



An end view of the same bumper area. Not pretty.



Starting to cut away the old door bottom. The opposite end from the bumper.



Bottom is off and now to get the lower attachment bracket off. I used my induction coil and it came right off.



To put on the new RD door bottom, I will try to keep as much of the old door skin for alignment purposes, so I used a cutter and a chisel to back up the cutter to pry way the door skin.



More in a moment.

Thanks, Tom

[Red911]

More door bottom removal process.

If you have watched my door skin straightening earlier mess, the lower door skin has parted with the upper door skin. But I can use the flange that I opened up in the last posting to capture the RD door bottom for practice fitting on the car.



Here is the RD door bottom ready for some cutting and fitting.



Time for a cold beverage and to carefully read Tom's three part blog on repairing doors and rereading Ron Roland's book on door bottom and skin replacement.

Thanks for shedding a few tears for my rust. Gone, but not forgotten.

Tom

[Red911]

Hello all,

I began to mock up the door bottom today.



I removed most of the door opening brace as it is well bent and cracked.

Tom

[JTR70]

Whew! that's a crispy door. But you're on the right track Tom.
Best of luck on this repair!
Justin

[roy mawbey]

Yes Tom all the best on this job.

Roy

[Red911]

Hello all,

Here is a photo of the door that was in rough shape.



Hopefully, after my commentary about what I did today, you can see the door is perhaps worth saving.

I cut off the bottom of the door skin using a strip of tape stretched across the door skin to keep the cut straight.



Too late to stop now.



With the bent door bumper removed along with the attached rust to get to good metal, I saw a nice valley in the metal that I wanted to get straight when the new bumper holder goes on.



With some porcupine quills, and my new puller, the valley came out along with some dents.



Cleaned up and the valley is gone.



More in a moment.

Tom

[Red911]

Hello all again,

Here is a photo from the side of the valley showing the side is now straight.



For the remainder of the day, I metalworked the door's dents. Here is how it looks now. Compare to the first photo of the previous post.



I'll keep the door now.

Tomorrow, more metal work and then installing new 18 guage steel for keeping the door strong and the hinges aligned.

However, I am concerned about installing the RD door bottom and RD door skin so the bottom and side gaps are good.

Keep your fingers crossed.

Tom