Real or Fake

[JTR70]

Yes it is a fake/fraud but it is still a legitimate car to be evaluated on its own merits and entitled to the history.
j

I'm having tough time figuring out how that makes any sense at all. How in the world could an object that is only representing a thing that once existed be entitled to its historical achievements? You're just being contrary right?

As for VIN#'s I've had a similar discussion on the Registry awhile back on the seriousness of tampering with them and it never ceases to amaze me how casual these guys are about stamping in their own numbers!! "I just want fresh VIN plates in my door since the old ones are all scuffed up. Anybody out there stamp numbers?" Even though that plate unscrews by law you are not allowed to tamper with or remove the original rivets that hold the tag on; not even just to clean under there! Stamping a new tag yourself is a whole other level stupidity. BTW it does amaze me that the Porsche vendors even offer these plates!!!! My information comes straight from the CHP and they are trained in what to look for. If they even suspect a VIN has been tampered with they will impound your car and take you downtown in the process. They will hold it until they can establish to their satisfaction its true identity. If they can't a judge will order the car destroyed, race history and all no matter who owned it or put that number in there.

[roy mawbey]

Oh how I agree with you Justin on that. To me I am as amazed as you on the blank repro ident plates and having them stamped.( Only cars that have them damaged beyond repair need new ones )

But of course the people who replace their old tatty indent plates with new would never ever look at buying my car with original 56 year old carpet

Some don't give a hoot on originality or history but as long as it looks like new.

Roy

[neilbardsley]

I know nothing about the law on this but I would happy replace a damaged vin plate with a new one. Just like a damaged wheel or panel. I agree it may affect the value of the car but if a faithfully copy of the original vin I don't see any attempt at fraud.

[MMW]

So by saying it is o/k to replace a vin plate with a new re-stamped one would you also be o/k with cutting out the vin in the front trunk area & welding it in a new nose while doing a repair or replacement? In my opinion, not o/k.

At what point does it become a replica or a tribute car? That is a tough one to answer.

It is funny or maybe sad that before money got involved this was never an issue.

[MMW]

Yes it is a fake/fraud but it is still a legitimate car to be evaluated on its own merits and entitled to the history.
j

Maybe what is trying to be said here is that if the car is presented as being rebuilt/rebodied etc. that it just becomes part of the history of said car.

For instance if 904xxx was totaled & then rebuilt with documentation then 904xxx still survives but everyone knows it has been rebuilt at one time. Just becomes part of it's history. But it can never again be original.

[356JAGER]

Mic,
Actually 904XXX doesn't survive in your scenario, only it's vin plate. Seems about as 'authentic' as a plastic Speedster to me.
Neil,
In your scenario, aside from the fact that replacing a vin tag is completely illegal, it's no longer original. Leave the damaged one, it is. Remember, something is original only once. If one of my limbs is amputated and replaced with a prosthetic, I am no longer 'original'...
Best,
Joel

[jacques]

Hi i started this discussion to increase the awareness of this issue. i do not participate in any fraud but am aware of many instances that some less than honest "creations" have occurred. as always: Caveat Emptor
cheers
jacques

[Steve Heinrichs]

Jacques,

Well, gee, a rable rouser you are!

Anyway, good discussion for certain. People can do what they want to do but when selling a car complete transparency is the key, especially if the frame was replaced and the car rebodied and all the parts were from some other car/whatever and the motor was a spare case with Capricorn internals and an "added" Porsche number and the worn-out data plate was, well, replaced with a new one. As long as the seller says all of that, I think a buyer could evaluate this "Sebring" winner.

Steve Heinrichs

[Ciscokid8]

Mic,

Yes it is a fake/fraud but it is still a legitimate car to be evaluated on its own merits and entitled to the history.
j

Maybe what is trying to be said here is that if the car is presented as being rebuilt/rebodied etc. that it just becomes part of the history of said car.

For instance if 904xxx was totaled & then rebuilt with documentation then 904xxx still survives but everyone knows it has been rebuilt at one time. Just becomes part of it's history. But it can never again be original.

In this case the car would be labled with a salvaged title. The buyer if any, would then need to proceed with caution. But the car is still the same car by name and model number.

[Steve Heinrichs]

Joris,

Maybe a salvage title, maybe not. For me, cars that are really completely redone bring no history with them. I'd think of them as tribute cars.

In any event, the "restoration/re-build" stuff runs the whole spectrum of little to all. Given the prices these days, a buyer should be most careful and a seller most transparent.

Steve Heinrichs

[gerrymc547]

Wow!:
What a can of worms. A car is only original once. New ignition points, it's no longer original? That's a bit much. New fender following a crash? If it's a "daily driver car", no problem. If it's a "collector car" priced way beyond it's usefulness as a vehicle, replaced fender should be revealed. A knowledgeable 356 buyer should know that floors, longitudinals, battery box etc. are likely replaced. If all are original, value goes up, rather than down if replaced. With the foolish prices being paid today, any buyer is at great risk. Buyer beware!
Many years ago, a friend bought a D type Jaguar, with a "parts car" in the bargain. After the project was finished, he sold the disassembled car for parts. The buyer said he would bring it back to life. Some years later, he saw that chassis number for sale "restored". Later, traveling in Europe, he met a man in a complete tizzy, because he had the same number car in his basement, and had met a 3rd guy, with the same number car! The D type has ID plates, on the front frame, the center monocoque, and the tail section. The car had been sold in sections, each buyer thinking he had "all that was left" and proceeded to build new parts to complete his own D type. Now, THAT IS a can of worms!

[jacques]

so we have 3 real D Jags but at most one is entiled to the provenace unless the same owner wants to have three.

[roy mawbey]

Interesting thread. Original or built up from parts. If you know 356 well its easy. Anything approaching 60 years old just open the drivers door and smell the inside, look under the mats, look at the carpet look at the glass and chrome. Look at nooks and crannies for the dust. Look at the headlining and under the dash at the wiring fuse box. Look at the upholstery. Then lift the front lid and look at the batterybox. Look at the factory coating. Look for the numbers that should be there.
Lift the engine lid and check numbers and overall finish. Look for modifications check the transmission and brakes.

Finally check the underneath for the welding work that has been done somewhere almost for certain. Then check the history.

Again for certain the original 50-60 year old car you have found will not be perfect at all. The owner will have tried everything to keep all the original metal and mechanical items as original by replacing worn parts only when necessary.The same with bodywork, area's will have been replaced but usually not panels. An original car though with 10 previous owners needs much more time to study!!!.

After passing the tests above possibly realise though, a restored car will probably if done by the correct people, be more reliable in the long run but the item you sit in will not have that much connection with the guys at Zuffenhausen who put it together in the first place.

I do say the above with some experience of trying to keep a 356 original as possible but driving it regularly. I guess the same rules
also apply to any classic type car.

Roy

[jacques]

Hi Roy
Faking 356s is not done too much unless you consider making Speedsters from Coupes. When a professional "restoration" is undertaken most of the clues you reference are usually gone. Spyders and 904 etc can have less than 50% of their original parts due to previous accidents or intentional fakery.
j

[DG58INNM]

Not that it adds much to the conversation, and it won't be a popular opinion but.........

I've come to not be too hung up on originality. Sort of full circle for me. When I started down this path with Porsche cars long ago, they really were just old used cars and I just wanted whatever I had to be better. If that meant a coat of shiny new paint, or custom upholstery, or aftermarket parts, I couldn't wait to do it. Then I went down the concours path and got obsessed with originality for a while. Then I got to where just being "right" was OK, but that didn't mean it had to have come from Porsche that way. Today it makes no difference to me if the longitudinal is 60 years old, or was made last week, as long as it is the right dimension, installed properly, and results in a properly operating car.

That doesn't mean I don't like "honest" old cars. I do. The smell of an old original 356 is priceless. But not for any practical reason, just because it makes me feel good. I like old paint, but not when it gets past the point of protecting the metal from rust, and then it should be replaced. "Patina" is fine when it means what is there may be a bit worn, but its still doing its job and there is no practical reason to replace it. If it doesn't do the job, replace it. Nothing lasts forever, least of all us!

I can see the distinction between a mere 356 and a more unique special purpose car. In the case of the latter, a notable portion of its interest comes from where it has been, what it was used for, and who did the using. I'm just a regular guy, and so will never own one of these "special cases" (though you have no idea badly I wish for one) which may mean I'm not qualified to comment. But with the special purpose car it seems to me a that originality thus becomes less important.

In Gerry's triplet D-type example, all three parts of the car were in a certain place, doing a certain thing, at the hands of a certain party. So all three, in spite of being short on the originality factor, have equal "provenance" (a hoi-polloi term I've come to dislike). Can't see why it would make any difference to me whether I owned the car made from the front, middle, or rear section. Kind of humorous really.

No point to this ramble. Just sitting here watching an old movie with my '65 special purpose model. Speaking of which, maybe she is another example. She recently received new front end parts. The original parts were quite stunning, but rust threatened to spread to the rest of the chassis, and it was not possible to remain as delivered. The restoration is truly magnificent. It was a difficult decision to make, but once made there has been no regret. Do I feel her value has been in any way diminished? Of course not. Just the oppposite!

DG