Real or Fake

[Meissen540]

I find it somewhat amazing that blank VIN data plates are offered for sale. Why would I want one? If a car had a major collision and the original plate was bent, wouldn't I be better off reinstalling it with the damage showing.... To show its an original car even though it had extensive work? I'm Also a little amazed the government doesn't regulate those Vin tags. ( not advocating more Govt. In our lives!! Just sayin')
Lots of people are searching for those unstamped 3rd pieces.... I guess they all have good intentions.
I personally would be very careful buying any "fully restored, numbers matching" car of any brand.

Great discussion.

Tom
Atlanta

[356JAGER]

David & Tom,
One of the joys about actually using one of these cars as a car, is that all one really cares about is having one that functions well. If it's shiny and the bits are original it may add monetary value to some, but to those who love a 356 for the way it demands your involvement in it's operation and the way it rewards that involvement, that's just frosting on the cake, sweet, but of little real substance.
Cheers,
Joel

[Jack Staggs]

I'm grateful that replacement vin plates are available. Some of these thin pieces have dissolved over years of exposure to the elements, replete with missing critical information. That being said, I do not condone abuse. Careful usage is the byword in these instances. Full disclosure, and any remaining remnants of the original plate should be saved and presented to a new owner, should a sale take place. It is interesting to note that Porsche offered replacement sheet metal for 356 trunk areas that had the raised section for the chassis number, but was left blank.

[Steve Heinrichs]

Jack,

Yep...I think full disclosure is the key. A buyer should otherwise, as well, determine that the car is what it is suggested to be.

Steve Heinrichs

[JTR70]

I know nothing about the law on this but I would happy replace a damaged vin plate with a new one. Just like a damaged wheel or panel. I agree it may affect the value of the car but if a faithfully copy of the original vin I don't see any attempt at fraud.

Neil, it is exactly this casual attitude that can potentially get owners in a whole heap of trouble. I have to admit I too would probably feel the same but my old mentor who worked with the theft and recovery division of the Highway Patrol set me straight many years ago. You know your an honest guy and you know your car is not stolen. The cops do not come at you from that angle. If they believe a number has been forged or tampered with it is automatically assumed stolen until proven otherwise. Unfortunately in this instance you are guilty until proven innocent. Its nothing like a damaged wheel or a fender by law you are never at liberty to remove, forge or destroy a vin plate on your vehicle. I tried to educate this guy on the registry a while back follow this link: http://www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/12299-A-word-to-the-wise-on-forging-VIN-numbers.html

The link in the first post will take you to the R-forum where I tried to explain how serious it is. The second link is to a nightmare a corvette owner is living as an unwitting purchaser of a car with altered numbers. Take a look...
Justin

Thanks Gerry! Great educational story.

[bbspdstr]

Hard to escape this thread's involvement in today's old Porsche business or hobby and, truly, it wasn't a problem when I began with both aspects.

I first bought rivet-fastened (solid or 'pop') data plates from Porsche. It had a part number and came through a franchised dealer. If the Factory thought replacement was legit, who was I to question their offerings? I had no problem replacing a missing, ruined, corroded or rusted one as long as it matched the number stamped in the chassis and that matched the registration with the owner's name on that. Whether total restoration or collision repair, once one gets deep into a car, it's easy to tell if fraud is involved in it's recent or deeper past.

Unfortunately, there are those who can renumber a chassis so well that an average person cannot tell and a suspicion of wrong-doing would be needed to pursue high-tech forensics to know if anything had been changed beyond the obvious removable and restamped plaques on removable hinges covers and data plates in the forward compartment of a 356, but that is rare in most instances as most are crude and easily seen if one knows what to look for.

As time went on, Porsche added the chassis number to other areas of the car, not just the trunk. Into the early 911s, more were hard to find...witnessing the need to fight thefts where whole shells could be 'recycled.'

I went to a swap meet many years ago where a 930 was displayed like a high school biology project, splayed open on a roll-back truck that even had the company name on the doors. I walked around and saw that no numbered areas of a 930 were included, neatly excised from where, by that time, I knew where they should be. Chutzpah!

Shortly after that, Porsche added bar code labels to every major panel. If they were scanned...well, even if they were missing, theft could be determined.

I refer fondly to my last Speedster as 84255. That number is on the raised rectangle in it's trunk when made in Germany. It has both original cowls and floor and a few other interior panels that are from the original build...ahh, and the rear end cap, too. The good news/bad news is that the car is NOT very "original" otherwise. It was bought to be raced and each owner wrecked it and sold it to someone who then fixed it, raced it and wrecked it again....through yours truly. I then sold it to a man who loved the "provnance" and the challenge of being a conservator and protector of 84255 and knows all and cares less that it has fenders from an abandoned A Cabriolet that I bought to replace chicken-wire and bondo SCCA flares, that it has a new rear torsion bar tube from a chunk of Convertible D that decades ago was sacrificed as a "parts car" after a front end crash, that the left door was made from a C Coupe door and the right was a high-striker Speedster door gift from Chuck Stoddard after my own crash. The battery box was from another donor car before my time but after owner #2 hit an embankment at Lime Rock, nose first....and on and on...

It's been loved and lost, now loved and protected and in my avatar if not my garage. It's driven, finally, on roads and streets for FUN, even if it's original bumpers have been on a Convertible D since the '60s and it's top frame is the original from Mike Robbins' Speedster.

"Legal" has it's own 356 shades of gray. "Originality" does not apply to a spare key made even a month after the car it's for. As a bottom line, it's the intent to commit fraud that is the crime and yes, that's usually driven by money as a motive when old Porsches are involved. "Caveat emptor" really is the best defense.

-Bruce

[JTR70]

Thanks Bruce! All those stories make perfect sense especially when you consider the life of an old race car. My only mission is to warn fellow car lovers about the seriousness of VIN tampering and what you are potentially opening yourself up to by doing so. Take for instance that Speedster in the above example on the Registry. Now that he has grafted in that new bulkhead plate the car will always be suspect. Say he eventually sells the car for 450K and 10 years later the new owner for whatever reason gets pinched and loses the car because it was determined that the VIN plate was grafted in. You can't doubt for a moment that the guy isn't going to come back on him for the loss of his investment; not to mention what the state may pursue against him. This is what I mean, he has now exposed himself to this potential danger and threat while that car exists. He should have left the (CA Blue tag) reassignment ID# in it and let that sleeping dog lye.

[jacques]

Race cars don't need VINs. It is Paradoxical that faking is rewarded and brutal honesty is self defeating. To maximize the perceived value of something it is presented in the best light. a resurrected car will demand the same price as a totally unmolested one if the history is not revealed. An appraiser will evaluate what is existing and if he suggests that there may be "over restoration" he will not have many repeat customers. Car dealers present their vehicles in the best light they would not stay in business if they told the whole story. There probably would not be as many sales of the book if it were not a tool for increasing the value of the cars. my personal opinion i do not place great importance to Nos matching the Kardex since it can be faked. Race history is nice but specific results belong to the driver not a VIN No that had probably few remaining parts that actually were there.
j

[bbspdstr]

Race cars don't need VINs. It is Paradoxical that faking is rewarded and brutal honesty is self defeating.

Great quote! Thanks, Jacques.

A car model, type or style that becomes a person's favorite can become more a target of scrutiny than others. Before I changed my mind and became a fan of the 906, I really, really liked, wanted, desired, coveted (you get the idea) the 904.

From a teenager until about the year 2000, I was involved with motor racing of all sorts. I was in the fantastic period from '60 through the '90s. If I couldn't race, I would work at the races...I am a lousy spectator.

At one Vintage race during the 15 years I was 'weekend staff' for SVRA, I saw on my grid sheet that a 904 was in a class where an original 904 would race. I noted when it came to the grid that it was a reproduction, a clone so much better than a 'real' one that I took a closer look. Very nice, very well driven, well presented.

The only thing that bothered me was that it was represented in the program AS a '64 904. That may not have been a problem if the other reproduction 'tribute' cars such as a very accurate and well driven Corvette Grand Sport, Cobras, Lotus clones and others were assigned to the class where 'originals' would run, but those were relegated to an 'exhibition' class. There was no parity and perhaps a hint of dishonesty with this cloned 904. Who was fooling who?

Who knew, who cared other than me? My job was to be sure the cars were safe, the drivers where where T&S told me to place them and ready to send them out to have fun. For the drivers, the only money involved in 'winning' was what it cost to participate. If a 'real' 904 beat a 'fake' 904, that would be poetic justice. If it was the other way around.....I had to let that go.

-Bruce

[Ryles]

So, that RSK story has surfaced.
There was talk about that at the Lit and Swap meet in LA. The dude that had it was employing the same douche that built your messed up speedster parts. One had the frame, the other had everything else. What a nightmare.

Justin, I like the engine idea... I thought even the blank cases had special numbers cast in them. So, blank or not, numbers are numbers and a complete Capricorn is a Caitlyn.
Im good with fake boobies on my chick, so a real case and fake internals is fine.

How much is a blank case? Can we just swap in cool modern technology on the blank case? Like EFI or better pistons and cylinders with modern coatings, etc?