Real or Fake

[jacques]

what are the limits of faking?
Say the owner of 718-xxx decides to replace his frame and discards the frame. someone buys the frame it is the frame of 718-xxx does he now have the real 718-xxx or does he just have a real frame and is 718-xxx a fake?
j

[Steve Heinrichs]

Jacques,

Good question...and not just a theoretical one in the world of 550/718/904.

Steve Heinrichs

[Don C]

Who owns the title papers?

[JTR70]

Oh Jacques,
You are making me rethink my earlier post about that 904 burnout that Gerard posted yesterday. IMHO if you have the original frame (and by frame I mean more than half of it)then you have "The car". Anything less is just a Vin# and a story to go with it. The car's most basic existence is of course its frame and then the number it was assigned BY THE FACTORYgiving it its identity. Its in the title "chassis number". I'm somewhat familiar with the RSK in question and its current state of condition is a real quandary. The old owner for god knows what reason commissioned a new frame constructed for his RSK. The Number was removed from the original frame and welded onto this reproduction chassis. This is considered a felony by the way. The original frame was not destroyed but sold and is now in the hands of Steve Hogue being rebodied.http://www.abcgt.com/forum/5-4-Cam-Forum/381-RS61-Spyder.html
In my mind the current owner of this RSK chassis number has a reproduction at its core sitting in his garage. As the owner of said chassis number his pockets should be deep enough to buy this frame back and reunite it with its true identity. Another illegal maneuver BTW but its authenticity will always be in question otherwise. They should take that repro frame and Steve's new body with a legitimate CA reassignment number and create a really cool recreation.

[356JAGER]

Neither is still the real deal but compilations of it. Even though one of the owners has the title to that chassis number, in reality, it is no longer the actual vehicle. If I was spending that kind of money I wouldn't spend it on such a car, at least not without a huge discount and the understanding that there will always be 'issues' as to authenticity. Just my thought, others (no doubt the owners of the two iterations) will disagree.

[JTR70]

Here's one for you to chew over Jacque and anyone else reading this:

How about a bare original 4-cam block with no ID# ever stamped in it.
Its assembled utilizing all new reproduction parts from Capricorn,crank, heads, cams, a Gerd Bruer blower housing etc. Is it now an original 4-cam engine or a reproduction??

How about the opposite a new Capricorn block built with all original 4-cam parts from a blown engine. Original 4-cam motor still? Sounds a little like that RSK in question..
Justin

[Steve Heinrichs]

Guys,

My take on the frame question would essentially be the same. Hard to understand how/why a frame would be replaced if the body did not have major problems. Many of the 550/718/904s are "rebodied" on the original frame. The "I have the body but not the frame and therefore I have the car" is rare and wrong.

As to the Capricorn motor stuff---while the motor may be perfect, it is not original; it is a repro motor. And, now, actual real original 4-cam motor fakes can now be determined. If someone takes an original case that was unstamped and "bare"-----stamping in the "correct" original motor number will not prevent its determination as not original!!

Steve Heinrichs

Steve Heinrichs

[jacques]

My take is that the original frame once the number tag is removed is just a bundle of tubing. even if the frame is fitted with all the original parts and a number tag attached it is a real spyder but not entitled to a factory no or any of the history of any of the pieces unless
he came by them from a holder in due course. even if that car does no longer exist. the letigitimate owner of the Spyder could have a frame made of Titanium a Capricorn engine with any of the nos associated with his car he pleases stamped in it and he has that car and it really does not matter if everything on it has been replaced.
j

[Steve Heinrichs]

Jacques,

Wow. So---if I have a frame plate or data plate only from, say, a 550 Spyder, I could have everything else made and you think I would have that numbered legitimate 550 Spyder?

Steve Heinrichs

[356JAGER]

So all it takes to have an 'original' car is a number plate ? Wonder how many would pony up to purchase that car and actually believe it to be 'original' ?
Jacques, I'd say good luck selling that igloo.. But of course, PT Barnum has been proven right on a regular basis.
Best,
Joel

[jacques]

If you were the owner of record and if you had not transferred the ownership you are entitled to create the car by whatever means available. I bet some cars in museums do not have more than say 5% of their original parts. The reason altering Vin/engine nos is a felony is that it is normally associated with a theft. there is nothing wrong if you have a reproduction of a Picaso painting it only is a problem if you sell it as an original.
j

[jacques]

Yes Steve if you had the right chain of ownership and of course the better job you do recreating it the more comfortable you would be presenting it.
j

[Steve Heinrichs]

Jacques,

Well...we disagree on this issue. To me, building a car around a data plate is a fake/fraud/etc.

Steve Heinrichs

[jacques]

Yes it is a fake/fraud but it is still a legitimate car to be evaluated on its own merits and entitled to the history.
j

[356JAGER]

If you were the owner of record and if you had not transferred the ownership you are entitled to create the car by whatever means available. I bet some cars in museums do not have more than say 5% of their original parts. The reason altering Vin/engine nos is a felony is that it is normally associated with a theft. there is nothing wrong if you have a reproduction of a Picaso painting it only is a problem if you sell it as an original.
j

So what would be the point of using the original vin or investing the $. It still isn't and can't be presented as 'original'. The 'history' belongs only to the VIN plate, the rest of it has none.

Best,
Joel