BT5 resto

[JTR70]

Jonesy, thanks for sharing your build! It looks like you have you hands full with rot and old accident damage. You're lucky to have Jason Bobruk so close by though I understand about your earlier statement as the last time I spoke with him he was telling me that he's recently expanded and just getting busier.

Jason was kind enough to give me a crash course in metal bumping and lead wiping while they were on holiday in the U.S. a couple of years back.

His father Luddy also helped in rehabilitating my old wrinkly front fender that afternoon. Just great guys and I also probably have him to thank for sending you our way. Tell him I said hello, next time you see him would you please?

Here is a shot of the forward bulkhead you were asking about:

This is on an "A" chassis but they are all the same here. The sides are recessed shouldered and rest directly on the inner flange of the frame runner.

As for the Brass welds on the skin its easier to cut just past them instead of trying to melt them off. The heat generated in trying to do so will make a wavy annealed mess of the surrounding metal.
Keep up the great progress!
Justin

[Jonesy_356]

Thanks mate, that last photo confirmed a lot. Hand formed this patch panel and started to weld it in...

[Jonesy_356]

Finished off the tidy-up of the lower pedal board patch panel. It cam out pretty straight and strong, with the correct depth in the side-flange for the new front floor. I received this new front floor half and the other panels I ordered as an early Christmas present from Restoration Design. I am pretty impressed with these panels and the service that the guys gave me. I will update on the quality of fit as I go.





Also bought 2 new outer longitudinals, new 'v' shaped panel, RH lower front inner guard, whole LH inner front guard, new batt box floor, new seat mounts and pedal board mounts. The rest I plan to make. Thanks for browsing, Jonesy

[Jonesy_356]

Bit more work this afternoon - mocked up the next patch from cardboard, transferred to steel, cut and bent. This is the RH lower torsion tube vertical support wall, the bottom section of it was rusted and smashed into a twisted mess (likewise the LH side, it's next). I don't have any fancy tools, so I just used a piece of angle iron, a bar and a few clamps as a bender, with a solid planishing hammer working the bends overs slowly to form the flange. Still a bit more work to make them sharper. I don't have a stretcher/shrinker so for the bend in the flange I just cut this one and will make a small patch and fill it in when the piece is solidly mounted to help with warping. I am using .6mm wire with the voltage and wire speed rates changing based on the metal I am welding to. I need to get some more gas to press my oxyacetylene back into service. Cheers, Jonesy.

[JTR70]

You're on your way Jonesy! I don't own stretcher/shrinker jaws at the moment either so relief cuts in the flange is the only way to make those turns. Keep chipping at it! Justin

[Jonesy_356]

Justin, thanks for commenting. It's motivating (as I'm sure you know) to have someone watching your efforts. I am on summer holiday now for a month and will try to continue with my 1 hr per day minimum. Hopefully I can exceed that! How reassuring is it when you finish a piece that was previously just rusted junk, and ends up strong, complete and reasonably integrated and seamless? Must be a primal thing! Jones

[Jonesy_356]

Hey guys I have a curly question. I have bought new outer longitudinals. Ron Roland's book, in the editors comments, says that you can remove and replace the outer longitudinal without removing the sill/ rocker assembly. As we know the inner long and the sill sandwich the outer long. Can it be done? Experience? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Cheers, Jonesy

[bbspdstr]

Jonesy,

You seem to want the "cheater" way for merely the inner longitudinal replacement and I am not near my Roland book to know his confessional.

What I hate to have to admit to doing years ago was cutting the outer longitudinal about 2"-50mm down from the upper crevice and the 'from there' is dictated by closing panels staying or being replaced.

The crevice and remaining longi must be cleaned and able to accept the appropriately trimmed new part when that is slipped up into the cevice to either be welded to the metal hanging or to the underside of the sill at the cevice (which requires more precise measuring and fitting but gives the nicest result).

Nowadays- when doing this task wholesale I cut back on the inner threshold about 1" or 25mm to clear the numerous spot welds of the three-way interface and weld in a new strip of metal so the (fresh) upper-outer part of the inner longi, the sill and the outer longi can all be punched and plug welded to be as new when all are being replaced or blasted clean as part of a "floor job."

It's all relative to how much needs repair or inspection on which panel and a lot to do with the strength needed if it's a Coupe or Cabriolet....in other words, each car will require slightly different approaches unless it's getting all new parts.

Good luck,
-Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Bruce, good advice here. My friend Tony Smetona thinks that every car has rusty areas in the longitudals, no matter how good they look from the outside. I tend to agree with him. Depending on the project, he likes to use your old school method of trimming and fit to preserve the " sandwich" whenever possible, but that can take many more hours. Another benefit is that the lower door seal depth is preserved. Those replacement sills can be all over the place! Well, he's a concourse nut. What can you say...

[JTR70]

Jonesy, I'll give you the same advice I've given in the past: Don't cut corners when it comes to the steel work. Especially concerning the chassis and most especially on the longitudinals; everyone looks there because they ALL have been replaced or patched at some point unless its a dry later Karman body with those wonderful drain/vent holes. You're waist high in it already so I highly recommend going all the way and doing the full replacement right now. You might say its my car and I don't care if its a partial patch but the day will come when you'll want to sell it and get top price. Anyone willing to pay you the big money is going to hire a pro like Bruce, Jack, or Jason B. to look it over carefully before cutting the check. Any sub-par steel work is going to come back and bite you hard. They'll say I love the car but I have to pay Bruce Baker 10K to fix those longs. so we need to figure that into your asking price.
Your car, your time and of course your decision.Just my 2 cents
Justin

[Jonesy_356]

Thanks Jack, Bruce and Justin. I had not actually thought that I was 'cheating'! I was of the opinion that to leave as much of the original metal in place was the best path. This seems to be what you are advocationg Bruce and Jack My approach to date has been to put the smallest possible patch on. For this particular case ( outer longs) I had thought to make the cut below the join line and cut the replacement panels to match, but had half discarded that as I thought that was the 'cheating' route! Hence the question about techniques to slide the flange of the replacement panel in between the sill and inner long. that way, I reasoned, I could treat any nascent rust in that three panel join.

Justin your comments are frank and I appreciate that. You have got me thinking about my philosophy of repair of this machine. I want to do the best job I can, even if I have to repeat things as part of the learning process. You're right - we are merely custodians of these cars for a while and if one can't do a top- notch job then one shouldn't be doing the work. As above, my question did not come from a perspective of cutting corners.

I think from here I will open up the outer long slowly (as suggested by Bruce) and see what the condition is inside. I can always continue with the whole enchilada if appropriate. My concept of how the longs would look in the end was brand new metal on the outers and well preserved from the inside out. Better than the original. I will post some photos after I open her up.

Many thanks! Jonesy

[bbspdstr]

I use a method of longitudinal assessment that requires only drilling before cutting. I drill 19mm/3-4" holes in (usually) 5 places on the top of the inner longitudinal/threshold and go in with a bore scope.

My weekly visiting toolman sold me a relatively inexpensive hand-held color monitor- thin and flexible version- a couple of years ago to replace my old thicker/shorter one I had to put up to my eye. It's great to see in closed/tight places. Good light and clear fiber optic lens to show where and approximately how much rust you are facing before you cut.

Those holes are easily plugged and get tar paper or other insulation (Dynamat?) and carpet, so eventually they become invisible without more welding.

That said, I get to say quite often that I have never cut off a whole panel or area of a 356 that I regretted, never had to say "Damn, what did I remove that piece for...it wasn't rusty." We joke about the rust starting before it left the Factory, as "Made by Hand" shows two workers leak-checking while the 356 is still on a dolly, one inside looking for leaks while the other squirts a firehose at the in-and-outside.

Still, if you just want to do the upper vertical overlap of old and new outer longitudinals and you do it well with very little wrinkles from welding heat, it can be strong enough and done so no one can tell (except the gurus who can know without ever doing this kind of ugly dirty work themselves...and maybe even have their own TV show).

As for costs:
It's been posted on Justin's site and elsewhere that in my own experience of time surveys, a "floor job" will average about 160 hours of trimming, cleaning, fitting, welding and grinding, priming and texture coating. Four work weeks at whatever the shop rate is of the shop of choice....plus parts. That could be $20k after taking the 356 apart and before putting it all back together again....but again, every car will be different. Some more, some less.

Best of luck in this coming year.
-Bruce

[roy mawbey]

[Jonesy_356]

Gentlemen,

thank you all again very much for your responses. Please find below photos of my longitudinals and closing panels to provide context.

Justin, Jase B has seen these panels and offered the suggestion that I may elect to just replace parts of the outer longs, as this was a practise he had used previously. I am sure he was considering my (much) lower level of skill. Another caveat is that he strongly suggested that I have the car bead blasted as soon as possible (which I have not done yet but will obviously do so) so that we could see what I was working with.







As you can see the lower portion of the outer front closing panel is trash and I have purchased a replacement panel for that. The outer long has some pinholes and has general outer surface rust.

[Jonesy_356]

Continued...





Both jack spurs are junk...