'63 356B T-6 Rebuild

[Phil Planck]

John
Beautiful Cobra. Nice job! You have some real ugly welds on the 356 with lots of pin holes where moisture can leak in(or out). Tough decision on how to proceed. But, if as you stated that you want to make it look factory, you might consider removing the bottom 6" that were poorly repaired and start over. Might me able to save the pan with careful removal, assuming it is correct for the car. I have replace the bottom 6" on my 63, but had a little easier time of it because it had never been repaired before. Most of the lower sheet metal repair parts are not too expensive. I am using 6" as a general term. May need to go higher in a few areas. Ron Roland's restoration book has excellent description on repairing the bottom 6".

Good luck

Phil Planck

[badsix]

John, beautiful cobra. it looks like you have the talent to build cars. I see no reason the 356 won't look as good, but you do have your work cut out for you. I'm in about the same stage as you, only my body is real nice. its just getting the ambition to get going on it. I did replace the passenger rocker panel and I need to strip all the old lacquer primer off and start with something better epoxy probably. this site has given me some inspiration though I just have to get at it.






Jay D

[John Pierce]

Thanks Phil and Jay!

I have Ron Roland's and Jim Kellogg's books, which complement each other. My floor pan is not installed very well and the edges were cut to fit. You can imagine what it looks like from the pictures I've shown. Ron's book and your car both have some original areas to work with to make alignment a bit easier. My worry is that I don't have any landmarks to go from if I start cutting things out. Where do I start? Just follow Ron's book and take out the pan then work on the tunnel flanges and inner longitudinal flanges? Could I lose chassis alignment?

Phil: do you have pictures of your build on this forum?

[Phil Planck]

John
I started posting some, but have a long way to go. I have many pictures. Maybe your project will spur me to get them loaded up here. I will try to start with the bottom 6".

Phil

Justin - can't find my thread that I started "Resurrection of Foam Car", or something like that.

Never mind, I found it. Looks like if nothing has happened after one year it does not show up.

[JTR70]

Thanks Phil! Glad you found your old thread.

John, I highly recommend building or buying a rotisserie to do this job. It makes this very unpleasant chore go much smoother. After several hot sparks land on you while your on your back you'll know exactly what I mean. Also your finished product will turn out much nicer because your in a comfortable work position and you can see what your doing a lot better if your able to flip the car over. So I would say a rotisserie is your first project. Gordon made a really nice one out of two engine work stands.

I know exactly the frustration your going through. I went through it a few years ago with this speedster. It had two bad attempts at floor and longitudinal repair. Many scabby patches with gobbs of horrible thick welds to grind and clean. I thought what a double waste of everyones time! Their time to install that crap and my time to remove it. The rust would have been better!! As you can see I did not open the entire bottom at once. I did one side at a time.

I left their floor in to help support the chassis while I did each longitudinal and cut enough of the floor away at the edge so I had room to work. Once the longs. where done I cut the floor out. Justin

[MMW]

Here is one rotisserie idea from Trevor. Look through his thread, it has a lot of his rotisserie pics.

http://www.porsche356registry.org/356talk/4/29204.html

Here is one from Emory Motorsports.

http://www.emorymotorsports.com/workshop/33-workshop/misc/78-therack

Justin posted the blueprint page with all the dimensions not long ago I think. It would be in the shop manual, again I think.

[MMW]

I am just posting this for reference so you can see what is available. These are not for a "B" T6. These are what Justin posted but they are for a 356A so if you can get a workshop manual for your car it should have something similar.

http://www.abcgt.com/forum/6-Hot-Rod--Modified-356/9790-Back-from-the-dead-outlaw-build.html?limit=6&start=24

Maybe Justin has the same for a T6? If not you can buy the workshop manual from Charlie White at derwhite.

[John Pierce]

Phil: Your car is/was as bad as mine! I can't really understand the idea behind the foam, but it's interesting

Justin and Mic: Thank you for the information on rotisseries. That will be my next project. I've found local suppliers to get 1.25" x 0.120" square tubing. This will be great to practice my thick metal welding skill! Some people mount the rotisserie rear hoop to the rear torsion bar plates, others to the transmission mounts, and others with curved threaded bars around the rear torsion bar. Do you have any preferences? Same for the front: where would you recommend mounting the hoop?

My biggest concern is that I've got a car that's been bastardized/Bubba-ized. Removal of the floor pan is the easy job. When I start removing all the patches from the tunnel walls, side walls, and inner longitudinal in the cockpit, where do I take measurements to insure that the new floor flanges will be at the correct height and will be level. Justin, your pictures are fabulous and quite helpful on the Coupe-to-Speedster-Project, but these details elude me.

A second concern is knowing that I'm starting with a straight car. I've got all the literature from Charlie White and the Workshop Manual has lots of measurements: side to side and front to back. Which should I use? I've done a cross-axis measurement, which seemed ok, but I want to recheck before putting the car into the rotisserie.

Thanks again for the help.

JP

[Phil Planck]

John
Rotisserie is a good idea, even if you can weld upside down. I think I was optimistic when I started, and also had no clue how bad it was, as I did not strip the car, but just went from one area to the next, stripping as I went. Thus, no rotisserie. Roof, hood and engine lid still have paint on them. Rolands book gives a good dimension from the bend in the inner longitudinal down to the flange. At the time I did this part, I lived closer to Detroit and had weekly access to an unmolested reference car at Neil Goldberg's shop. I also have had great email and phone help form Bruce Baker, who runs a 356 resto shop in PA. He may be willing to give you reference dimensions when you need them.

[John Pierce]

Thanks Phil. I saw the measurements in Ron's book, which is quite helpful. I don't know if I can trust any landmarks in the car as all the original metal has been buggered up or replaced and I don't know if the replacement parts were installed in the correct positions.

Here are some pictures where you can see the new inner longitudinals and new tunnel flanges welded on top of patches. I guess I could level the car, front to back and side to side, using the torsion bars as a landmarks and just go from there.

[Phil Planck]

Okay - what I can do is measure the angle of the upper portion of the inner along with the vertical drop from top to bottom of bend. But, if you are going to remove that complete inner and replace it, the replacement may be able to be located off of the top flat section. Here is mine before repair on one side.

[JTR70]

John, the way the various panels all sandwich together can be confusing just starting out but once you wrap your mind around how its constructed those photos on my build will make a lot more sense.
By your last photos it looks like the entire inner threshold panel has been capped by Bubba. Is it double walled there now? Phil probably has you covered but I can also take some measurements from my buddies T-6 coupe if you need.. Don't get discouraged! Build your hoist and then concentrate on either the right or left longitudinal. Pick only one and block the rest from your mind for now. Its easy to get overwhelmed if your taking it all in at once. "Paralysis by analysis" soon sets in afterward. Your First small bite of this elephant is to plan/repair a longitudinal/threshold member...

[gkw]

John
Don't be intimidated by the volume of repair. You have a lot of
help on the list that have done it before. As Phil said , you need a rotisserie. Also Justin made a great statement of a small section at a time. Plan on hanging the doors at least a hundred times to keep checking the fit.
Gordon

[DG58INNM]

John,
I've been looking and marveling at this Frankenstein mess that "Bubba" left you. But as others have said, take one little piece at a time, get it right, and build onwards from there. It is a do-able project. I tackled some similar problems some years back with my '58 coupe. Badly bent, poorly repaired, then "restored" once by a "bubba", then a second time by a "356 expert" before I took a crack at it. Lots of things to undo, including new panels welded right over the top of rusty and damaged originals.

One thing I had to tackle was to build a completely new left side longitudinal, inner and outer, plus all the connecting pieces between the longitudinal and the rear torsion bar. Here is the mess I started with.



Fabricated the inner longitudinal from flat sheet with a brake. After many measurements and fits from my right side and several other good cars, I determined the measurements shown.



Jumping to the end of the story, and about 500 photos later, this is the end result.



You'll have lots of good guidance here. The Ron Roland book is a treasure. Justin is a genius. Phil proves no challenge is too great to overcome. Tom is inspirational. And if the going gets really tough, Bruce Almighty will lead you through the darkness. And many others here as well.

Good luck,
David

[Trevor]

Here is one rotisserie idea from Trevor. Look through his thread, it has a lot of his rotisserie pics.

http://www.porsche356registry.org/356talk/4/29204.html

If you want some measurements, let me know. Happy to help.