'65 356C Coupe Restoration

[justacoupe]

Note: I'm having problems figuring out how to insert links to a et of photos (isn't showing up in actual posting) and with inserting photos. I will edit this posting once I get help with that...

----------------------------------

My first post on the forum. Continuing a long project: the restoration of our 356C coupe (we call it "justacoupe"). Building it in what I call a "reversible outlaw" form (nothing that can't be reversed to "stock" fairly easily).

I am working now on a small rust area above the front right wheelwell closing panel. There is a "set" of photos at this link, a few of which are attached below:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18417287@N02/sets/72157631754410166/

I have opened a small (about 3" by 1") section of the upper rear fender. Would like input on whether I should open it up more, or just work on replacing small area with rust holes on upper closing panel... then weld in patch to the hole I have cut in the fender.

I have already replaced the lower section of the closing panel... the upper section (except this area) is solid.

I plan on posting the rest of this fix once I figure out the right steps... hopefully with some input from you guys.

Thanks,

Bill

[JTR70]

Bill, Thank you for posting your project! I would open up that entire run and clean all that cancer out at that splash pan junction flange. I mean specifically the outer portion as it makes the turn down the fender. I can see dirt, rust and tar still packed in there. The areas to side have not gone through yet but guaranteed there is thick scaley rust under there just waiting to start growing again. This also is a place that will be exposed to moisture slinging off the tires and is a blind corner that will accumulate moisture. No matter how much sealer you use the moisture will eventually find a way. Make the strip as thin as you can but give yourself enough room to clean in there. Kind of like a dentist that puts a filling in tooth without getting all of the rot out; the filling fails soon after. Hope this helps. Thanks again for posting! Justin

[justacoupe]

Thanks, Justin... just the advice I was looking for! I'll document as I go and will welcome any tips along the way.

Bill

[JTR70]

Welcome! Anyway I can help; Be glad to. Justin

BTW: what are your plans for the rust that media blaster could not get to?

[Phil Planck]

Bill

Justin gave some great advice and is much more experienced than I, but here is some more that you may already be aware of. Try to get rid of the square corners in your opening. You can use a power tool to round the corners and then cut new straight lines to go tangent to the new corners. When you weld, you will get distortion in the HAZ(heat affected zone) so you need a way to smooth that out. The weld will cause some shrinkage so you will need to stretch the metal some. This means you need to be able to get a dolly under the weld to slap on from above. I made a slapper that can also be used as a thin, flat dolly out of an old truck spring(not my idea - learned on metalmeet.com). This would fit up under the patch. Can send you pictures, or post here if appropriate of how to make the slapper. What also helps during welding, as shared when we briefly spoke at Gull Lake is to back up your weld with a strip of copper. I think Eastwood now has some that are magnetic which should fit up there. Tack about every 3/4" - grind tacks flush - fill in the 3/4 gaps with what some call stich welding. Let that welded gap cool to touch before next gap is welded, far away from first gap. This will minimize deformation. You can also grind each 3/4 gap weld flush before doing next gap, so metal remains about the same thickness all the time. These steps are not as critical on structural welding(unless you are doing it to Justin's standards) but will make a big difference on the outer panels. If there is convex curvature, I use a file instead of grinding welds.

Phil

[JTR70]

Hey Phil,

Great catch on that! I meant to mention about round versus square cornered patch panels to Bill. A rounded patch is less distance to weld than a square cornered panel so less welding, less heat, less distortion so I have read in all those metal fab books. Always learning! Phil knows a great deal and helped me along when I was planishing my rear quarter panel so you're in good hands. Justin

[justacoupe]

Justin & Phil,

You two should write a book! Thanks a lot for the input. Had not heard of the "rounded corners" approach before. So, when I open it up more to be able to attend to a larger area, I will round the corners of the larger opening.

Thanks for the suggestions regarding the "slapper" and mentioning the copper again. I'll do a search on "metalmeet" to see what they say about it.

Thanks!

Bill

[justacoupe]

So, I thought I'd practice on something that won't be visible later. I have attempted to follow your suggested approach, Phil. See photos below to see how it went. Please give me any tips based on what you are seeing. I flattened a piece of 3/4" copper tubing to use as a backer... it helped a lot. Only burn thru was when it shifted and I didn't know it had.










After a couple of more "rounds" of the above process, I ended up with this:

[JTR70]

Looks great Bill! Like the patch fitment and the Welds look hot enough with good penetration. Looks like you wirewheeled this area to remove the layer of rust. Nice job! Justin

[Phil Planck]

Bill

I agree - looks very good. Just fill in the little holes and one more smoothing and you are good to go. I find that the fitting of the patch takes longer than the welding. Some experts say the gap should be even all the way around, but for that area I don't think it is a big deal. May be more important on outer, show panels. You are off and running. Wish I could say the same. Spent last 2 weeks remodeling kitchen, as wife found a new, old stove on the way home from ECH that would not fit anywhere without major renovation and rewiring. I found a neat, retractable metal scribe at Granger which would work great to scribe the outline of your cut out onto the patch metal(tip of the day).

Phil

[JTR70]

Hi Bill,

Phil is right those tiny remaining pinholes can be hard to keep chasing; especially once you really consider yourself done in an area.
I read your inquiry on the registry about a deflector plate for the upper blind corner of this closing panel. It is absolutely a design flaw for sure. The answer for me on my coupe project is grease. I am going to pack that cavity and verticle pinch seams like a wheel bearing. Like I have said before I prefer a guey mess to clean rather than rust. These pinch seams and deep inside that shelf still have rust I have no illusions about that which is why I want that area coated and caked in high temp bearing grease. BUT, I thought about your question as far as a deflector plate. I have never heard or seen it done but I sat down and thought about how I would install one if I did. I made a paper template at the shop this afternoon on how I would approach it. Here are the pics.


Just a flat plate cut to desired shape with a 90 degree flange on the upper edge for a plug weld attachment.

Its main purpose is to deflect dirt and garbage so it won't accumulate up there and hold moisture. Its not meant to seal water out which Is why I would leave the lower run open and vented. However it would deflect a direct deluge of water coming off the front tires. I know your strengthening ribs are in a differrent spot on your C car but you get the idea.

This plate could take any form you like. You could even have an extension run that could deflect the entire verticle pinch seam. Heavy drip-check would be applied to the mount flange leading edge.

Holes represent the Plug welds. This is just a deflection shield and does not have to be "nuclear" mounted. Just a handful of maybe 4 or 5 plug welds or less if you can. I'd want to keep it very easy to remove if and when the day comes that you or the new owner want to reverse it for factory correctness. Hope this helps to give a "jumping off point" anyway. Keep us posted on what you decide. Justin

[Phil Planck]

Justin
Nice idea, but you should be spending your time on your car. I too saw Bill's post but having no experience with a "shield" in that area, did not pipe in. Unfortunately the only response I saw was an add for buying a book with "the answer". Bruce Baker could have given some great input. I will try to get him participating here if he is not already. Regarding the shield. It may cause more harm than good, as anything that gets behind it will stay there and be hard to get out. My 53 XK 120 DHC had a "shield" behind the door lock pillar, and it caused more harm than good as all the mud and sand got trapped behind it from the high force thrown off the tire. MY T6, and I think most all 356s had body caulk up in there - lots of it. I think with some good rust prevention treatment on the metal(which Porsche did not do) and then really packing in the caulk is the way I would do it. I have not seen a lot of 356s rusted out on the outer metal up there, mostly the inner metal, but my observation count is rather limited compared to someone like Bruce. Most of the rust is lower along the narrow V. I don't know if the factory put caulk there. I found no signs of it on Foam Car, but it will be there when I am done.

Justin, never heard of a 356 needing a lube job up there, but I bet yours will if you park it in the hot sun.

Phil

[JTR70]

Morning Phil,

I absolutely agree it probably would cause more problems down the road then it was intended to solve. Like I said, I had never heard of such a thing so it was really just a mental exercise on how to approach it if you were to do it. I'm sure Bruce would have some interesting input. I invited him over a while back; maybe he'll stop by when he's ready. You're right the grease it would run on a hot day if I packed it in there. I was thinking High temp grease but it still could run I suppose. My only thought is I want to keep that old rust in the pinch seams coated with a petroleum product of some sort to keep the water away from it. You have me thinking more about using automotive calk but I am so paranoid about future shrinkage and water getting behind it creating the perfect climate for that rust to begin growing again. Maybe I'll skip the grease and just leave it open and keep it coated with a penetrating oil down in there. Not sure.... Thanks for the input though. Yes, I'll get back to work on my car. Justin

[justacoupe]

Thanks, again, Justin and Phil. I'm going to spend a bit more time this evening trying to find where I read about the "shield" approach. As I recall, it involved adding metal at the top of the closing panel to completely seal off the "ledge." That is, so that not even water would get past it.

For now, I'll just continue with my efforts to finish the existing area I am working on and cleaning out the "ledge" area to get it ready for priming and caulking. That has to be done whether I try the block-off approach or not.

Posting here is a motivator. Makes me want to post some more photos showing progress. Thanks for your input on the process. You are great mentors!

Bill

[JTR70]

Hi Bill,

I don't know if that was much help, like I was telling Phil it is certainly nothing I personally would put on my car but I wanted to at least explore the idea since it was something you had read about. Maybe we all learned what "not" to do at the very least. Glad to hear your motivated! Looking forward to progress pictures! Justin