Hinge alignment 64 C

[jim]

In process of finishing passenger side sill and rocker. Checking door gaps and went to reset hinges. Door rubs front fenders as it has for years, large gap at door post so was going to move the hinges back but they were completely moved to the rear with no more adjustment available.

Any suggestions.

[JTR70]

Hey Jim,

I've had to move doors back a touch as well.

The holes are normally large enough to allow for enough rearward adjustment

But what bottoms out first and limits the range is the shoulder of the thread plate up against the back of the housing.

You can grind back this shoulder right up to the capture nuts.

This alone will buy you a good 3MM of additional rearward movement.
Best of luck and Hope this helped.

Justin

[jim]

Justin, thanks for the information. I will check your suggestion out today, trying not to over think the issue. The rear gap is very large, makes you wonder what happen thru the years. Will try and post a few pictures. There was a very interesting strip of sheet metal spot welded on the door post as a prefiller before being covered in lead. Today should be interesting.




Hard to see, but if you look close you can see the added strip, will lots of lead.

[John Pierce]

Jim,

I had to do the same thing that Justin mentioned on my '63 B T6. The lock plates on our later cars are different than what Justin showed, but it's the same process. It works wonderfully.

Let us know how things turn out.


John

[jim]

Thanks for the interest john. I did take a bit off the capture plate and still had an issue. I remember reading in the forum the door should be finished and ready to go. So now thinking the door is also the issue. I've had this car since the early 80s and its been off the road since the late 80s. My memory of what the door used to do in terms of rubbing is not clear. Anyway torn into the door yesterday and as expected issues, lots of fiberglass, not fun to remove and the usual 1/2 inch of bondo. I guess I got the cart before the horse, door should be done before final rocker placement. I probably should start posting pics, this might be the longest restoration in history.

[bbspdstr]

Jim, your photo of the leading edge of the leaded steps is confusing to me. It is as if there is an added step. Anyway, here is what Porsche thought the correct construction was:

Over the years, much added adjustment such as you note began being needed from many, many factors. Prior collision repair, prior parts swaps, prior bad repro fitment issues, bad workmanship in general...some from being done in a limited time frame due to insurance company involvement or being based on value of the car or just plain lack of skill or caring.

Your car may have been the victim of "all of the above." I am passing along "resto 101" as it was passed along to me. The basics which you may already know..but I don't know that.....I'm new to this thread.

You should...sorry; I recommend that you find a shop manual or beg copies from someone who has one to make large copies of the body dimension pages for your model. A good place to start would be to know your 356 is square, that all 4 suspension points are where they belong before assuming they are and build on a bad platform.

Use those Factory measurements to assist in basic measurements that can be compared side-to-side if no other references can be established, such as on a frame machine/'bench.'(See above and if necessary, see a professional at this stage.)

Start with the hinge pillar. Is it 'true'? Get an 8mm or ~5/16" rod long enough to pass through both hinges to be sure they are in sync. (Hint, 8mm "all-thread" rod is probably the easiest to find and closest to the size required.)

The grinding of the nut plates and opening the slotted holes where the hinges mount is common...but it shouldn't be! That is "last resort" stuff so look for the cause somewhere else if you are doing a whole resto.

Unibody chassis of a 356: one part or panel is only as good as the one that's next to it.

Now is the time to see the "big picture" and, as you noted, put the door in shape and then build fore and aft from there with trailing fender repairs and leading quarter panel/jamb repairs and always remember that altering placement, spacing and geometry of the hinges relates to clearances for the door to move open and closed under the arc of the trailing fender edge without contact and that's when the spacers (or none) come into the picture.

That then can affect the rocker placement, the window frame placement, etc, etc. Play chess? Look for the effect each move can make as many moves ahead of which you are capable. Take nothing for granted and assume NOTHING.

The point is to mock everything up before anything is permanently fastened. Tack welds, Tek screws, clamps or Clecos in overlaps should be in your vocabulary before you begin.....but many really great threads are here on Justin's site to help with pictures and words...and great qualified volunteer help overall. Peruse this (and the R) site(s), read books on restoration, especially Ron Roland's, get to know local enthusiasts and visit pro shops to get as much input as you can. This may be redundant to you, but I don't want to forget anything more than I already do as an old fart.

One thing is that you don't want to do anything twice if you can help it....or your "longest restoration on record" could be lengthened...and "life is short." To use a saying I have come to dislike, especially from a politician- "Trust me".....my longest was a Speedster that took from '80 to '98 to get sorta nice. But then I'm "in the business" and "the shoemaker's children always need new shoes."

Here is some background that may help. I had been restoring these old Porsches about 10 years when I found a local VoTech that had an evening adult class in "metal straightening," AKA "a place for old farts to work on their own cars with good light and floors and heat in the winter and someone (the instructor) to ask how things were done that weren't obvious and easy. Oh, and some tools one may not find at home." I found that perfect, as I had serious interest and questions and mostly had the attention of the crusty older instructor because I was an early middle-aged guy who didn't bring my own car and just wanted theory from his experience. That was a great help, pre-Internet, and very inexpensive. I also apprenticed when not in high school ('60-'64) in a local body shop that happened to also do a few 356s among the typical 'Merican cars.

We all have to consider Clint Eastwood's "A man's gotta know his limitations" quote for ourselves and also pace ourselves so a project doesn't languish or overwhelm us, so a lot of psychology goes into the challenge of the restoration, newbie or veteran....amateur or pro.

The short version: door first without final welding and finishing, work from there toward the rear and forward of door in the same fashion...so it all comes together..... small portions at a time. That will give the "a-ha" moments more than the expletives.....that I hate to admit I still find "refreshing" at times, whether working on a 356 or listening to a politician.

Best of luck,
Bruce

[roy mawbey]

Jim,

Bruce is correct, his explanation is perfect. If your car's dimensions can be established carefully, they are in the factory workshop manuals, then as he says, the doors can be used as datums really.

Tools or the correct ones, as he mentioned are invaluable, like the written words by people that have done the job and know the procedures.

This forum and its threads offer so much help that never existed for me when I started trying to get mine perfect, almost 50 years ago now. ( and still sort of trying )

I am sure the factory gave the life span of around 15 years for a 356
dependent on location. Its amazing really so many seem to be still around. For many years before internet I really thought mine was quite rare. Not so of course, people liked the 356 shape thank goodness.

Good luck with your car!

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Jim
Print out what Bruce wrote and read it before each shop session. Bruce has been my patient mentor for many years during my drawn out restoration.
Phil

[jim]

Thank you for your reply, great words of wisdom. This site has been a wealth of information. Years ago when I originally started this project very little info was available, no internet just the phone. As I started taking the car apart I realized it had to go back together.. I acquired the Porsche parts manuals which are helpful, interestingly today I found the workshop manual I thought I had purchased years ago, turns out its for the A model print date 1956. Still looking. Another tidbit, to assist in the reassemble back then I purchased a 63 t-6 which was to be parted out. That car, which is complete, never been apart will come in handy.

I notice there is a reproduction manual by White. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the quality or should I find an original one.

[jim]

As Bruce suggested I used a steel rod for the hinge alignment. The body lines up as you can see. But three 2mm shims were removed from the top. The same is true on the drivers side. The shims removed had blue paint on the edges. Maybe came that way from the factory.

[jim]

The rod thru the door hinge lines up but does enter the top hinge, off by probably 6mm (shims used on body hinge).

Is this normal or should the rod go thru both door hinges.

[jim]

Lower rust, removed fiberglass and about 1/2 of bondo.. The line is the 5 inch panel replacement area.

The bump stop seems to be somewhat mangled, but the door frame looks straight.

[Phil Planck]

I suspect the last pic shows the alignment culprit. The hinge is not parallel. The metal under it is bent down at the bottom. This is a common repair area, which you can see pics of in some of the other restoration threads.
Phil

[John Pierce]

Justin and I did door repairs to those areas if you need some reference material.

The hinges should line up. The door repairs should help.

JP

[jim]

Thanks John, I finally found your page where you did your door repairs. Very good clear information. Nice to see the repair process. Door was cleaned and is now ready for the work. Thanks again.