61 Roadster

[jim]

The first day my roadster has rolled since being stored in my barn in the mid 90's. The photos are dated and now the car is in Florida. I'm almost finished with my 64 coupe, bogged down in the motor rebuild and an obligation coming up that will delay roadster work till late summer. The roadster is stripped of parts sitting on my rotisserie frame. I purchased the car from the PO who had started a restoration and bailed out. His work was not the best, a lot of brazing and he some how used an arc welder to put the floor pan in and in the process fried the wiring harness. What I have found is the car was rusted in the typical lower places (New England Car) and my guess the frame strut supports were complete gone and someone managed to hit a pot hole or curb. This resulted in moving the front torsion bar tube around 20mm, shorter chassis. And when you think things couldn't get any worse the PO decided to restore and welded, brazed, bondo everthing in place. I have done some cutting of the brazing and cleaning up at this point. I'll post a few pictures and see how this site works now, I have not posted in a long time. Jim

[Phil Planck]

Now here is a project. Best of luck.

[jim]

Yes, it will be a project. A few more pictures of the car on the rotisserie, note the floor pan, probably a tweeks, the longitudinals, the damage on drivers side behind the tubes. Having trouble with the text and pictures, thought this was at the top, will keep working on figuring this out.

[Scott B]

Exciting new project to follow. Looking forward to your restoration.

[roy mawbey]

Agree interesting poject, a good car to work on a Roadster. Worth the time and effort to get it done properly.

Roy

[jim]

As I understand from the service manual the chassis measurement is 1,890.5mm from the center of the front lower torsion bar tube to the center of the rear lower bolt of the rear torsion bar cover. It seems I will have to move things around 15mm. The impact push the lower torsion tubes back in some kind of pivot motion. I'm having a difficult time finding where the 15mm went and what really makes it interesting is the PO welded and brazed things in place. In fitting the doors they are lower at the top portion in the back by about 1/2 inch. So I'm guessing the PO also welded the floor and outer Longs, rockers without any bracing so maybe thats some of the problem with the doors.

I'm avoiding doing much cutting and removal trying to figure this out. I did cut the diagonal and some of the front pan to loosen it up a little. Lifting the front by hand produces a movement between the cut area at the front torsion tube but also makes the doors move lower where they are too low.

Has anyone had similar damage or suggestions on their cars. Couple of pics where I cut the brazing out on the drivers side. The metal was distorted and the PO just brazed a glob of metal on the damaged area. Did something wrong, cant get the photo large. Will see when I post.

Thanks Jim

[JTR70]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for sharing your next project here, its a nice one. Sounds like you have alot of previous repairs attempts to unwind. The front beam is going to be a bit involved ...
Being in Florida have you located a shop with a Cellete bench and 356 specific fixtures that could at least set and relocate the front torsion housing for you?
Justin

[jim]

Justin,
Thanks for the picture, wished I had one of those. So far I've not be able to locate a shop with the fixtures, some of the shops that have the bench say bring it in and we will see what we can do and are not particularly forth coming about experience in 356's. At this point proceeding slowly and assessing.

[Jbrooks]

Jim

Nice project. You can fabricate the Celette bench, a good steel fabrication shop can put one together, the tolerances are tight but not all that difficult. There was a shop made one for sale in Portland last year for $5K. Its just I-beams and square tubing , What you are really looking for is a square, flat, level reference surface. The drawings for the chassis adapters are int he service manual. It takes some technology to put together but I can almost guarantee it will be cheaper to fabricate a bench than have someone else repair the front end. You do not need all the bells and whistles of a full bench, just the four 356 mounting points.

The Cellete is a universal frame bench, you do not need all the pull and push points. The basic bench it not overly complicated, 3/8" wall I-beam and 1/4" wall rectangle tubing. it looks more complicated than it really is. You can build a version of this bench and then sell it when you are finished, or go find another tub to put on it. I think Mike DeJonge at Restoration Design has frame adapters for sale, and he has replacement sheet metal for that damaged available.

[jim]

Jbrooks, Thanks for the information. I have been looking at fabricating a bench, the fixtures are the problem. I have looked at the ones RD has but have not talk with anyone. I have notice for the rear a fixture that is inserted into the rear tube and someone also has done one that is bolted to the four torsion bar tube cover. Since I'm just trying to line things up, not any pushing and pulling ,so just thinking about how far I have to go. My old rotisserie frame has clamps to the front and rear tubes and is square but would be useless in setting the front tubes height and angle. More checking to do, I notice I lost some pictures in an earlier post. Jim

[jim]

I'm back into the roadster, picked up the RD fixtures and other items, fab the base for the fixtures and moved the car into specs at this point. I need to address another issue before I move forward. The doors have a large gap at the door post of 10mm tapering to reasonable at the bottom. So far no hinge adjustment is working. What I believe the PO while putting the pan in with an arc welder and other repairs in the rear floor area may have contributed to this gap. Does anyone have a measurement for the door opening at the top. Best would be from the cowling point at the door opening to the upper flat piece at the top of the door opening in the rear. I have not yet cut the rear floor pan to loosen things up yet. A couple of pics are enclosed so if anyone has any info it would be appreciated.

Thanks Jim

[Jbrooks]

Jim

I cant blow blow up the photos, if you have the car up in the fixture, measure the bottom dimension from the front sway bar to the torsion bar tube. Do both sides. I bet that is short a couple mm, which will make the tub like a banana with the wide door gap.

Justin. Do you have a good set of door hinge to B pillar numbers Jim can reference. My A book is pretty limited

also. After you up load the photos, place the cursor in line with the text, and then click on the medium or large link next to the photo at the bottom of the box. That will place a photo in the text and provide a larger photo.

[JTR70]

I'll see what my manual has as far as that measurement. By your photos it looks like the car has already relaxed open. The cross bracing across the doors is one angle but you also have to keep it from twisting.
Here is an example of a brace that will cover all the angles and it was able to stay in position until the very end without getting in the way. Door fitment, floors, etc.
Cutting through seat pan my not be the option for you but can find alternate anchor points back there.

[JTR70]

My manual only illustrates coupe and Cabriolet. No Speedster/Roadster removable windshield data but these doors were all basically the same dimensionally so the info below highlighted in green will give you a baseline.

[jim]

Thanks for the replies, very helpful. I have the service manual but limited roadster info. Justin, I will look more closely at the coupe measurements and work thru this. I've been cutting the brazing and arc welding loose, the floor pan was welded to the bottom on the outside not inside and for some reason the PO hammered the rear bulkhead flange up and then massive brazing. After the removing and cleaning I cut my door opening brace loose, car on fixtures, the opening of the doors closed about 5 to 6 mm. Justin, will try to do a similar bracing arrangement, the car now is just about in specs for the torsion bar to rear bolt, 1890.5mm, I'm at 1888. I think I will start firming the front up with some welding then move to the rear. Thanks for the information.

Jim