1959 356A S/R coupe project chassis # 108625

[roy mawbey]

Justin I was wondering and wondering ,just what you were going to do my friend with that problem. I think that was the only way forward! So much effort but I can see it working out okay. These 356 cars really can make your brain work at times. Do hope it gets sorted out okay not an easy job and both you and I won't forget it ( Well you certainally won't !!)
Roy

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy, it was the best way forward. This is the way I installed the nose on the coupster project. Logic would dictate that you build outward but I found it much better to set and mount the nose first then "backfill" and bridge with the fenders. There is so much going on with the nose and its placement in relation to the latched hood that I found it much simpler to set that first then build backwards from there if you're reinstalling one or both fenders BTW. All of that coming next. Justin

[JTR70]

Nose installation continued.
Initial mock up with the left fenders edge out of my way.
Hood reinstalled and latched. Nose is slightly off center but is dictated by the edges of the trough for the moment. That gap and overhang on the right lower turn there would prove tougher to eliminate as the dialing in phase continued.
Slight underbite though much improved. The profile line of the hood was getting better as well.
The OG closing wall was holding the lip of the nose about a quarter inch too high so it would have to be messaged down as well. Now possible and mush easier wth the fender out of the way.
This was the way I ended up building the front end on the coupster project. Without dedicated holding jigs the fenders were just too floppy and kept changing shape and gap width as I tried to mount them. Once the nose was set I was no longer trying to accurately fit something hanging out in space.

Same rule now applying to this build.

Thanks for looking.

Justin

[JTR70]

Dialing in and fine tuning the gap.
Could not move further into gap setting as the leading edge of this nose was just too broad and soft.
The finished edged should be sharp and clean around the edge of the hood.
Though a lot of that final shape was done lead now was the time sharpen up that detail to reduce the need for filler to achieve that shape. Hammering that edge tighter at starting at the center. Poker highlights the profile shape it began as..
Leading edge planished to much crisper line.
With the shoulder now closer to final shape I could dial in the nose a little further. BTW this was only at the center and about 4-5 inches outward to each side. The gap closed up quickly as it went high around the hood. The rest of the run would have to be cut and reshaped around the edge of the hood. This was just some place to begin.

Onto the next step in mounting this nose.

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[JTR70]

Dialing in the final closing wall upper mounting flange height.
Aside from getting a consistent gap the trickiest part will be positioning this upper flange run in exactly the right the height to mount and hold stepped edges of both the fender and the nose to carry on the line of the latched hood. Don't have the luxury of bolts and spacer shims after the fact as with most car bodies.
Hood latched and now dialing in an approximate distance that compensates for the step down into the jamb. Another critical adjustment is in that corner lap joint, both the height and flange position are changed dramatically with their relation to one another. Another small window into all that is going in positioning this front end group into the sweet spot.
Last several inches of the lefts upper flange closes down to nothing against the latched hood. This is old residual accident/ "repair" damage and will need reshaping to create the needed space for the stepped flange. Another adjustment made a lot easier with the left fender out of the way.
Front end mock up dismantled so I could beat and reshape that section of the flange to the needed height in relation to the ltached hood.
Mocked up with nose and its flange so I can begin the preliminary fitting of this new walls height. Finally be able to add a set screw or two to begin locking in the final needed position. More on this to come.

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin, this work of yours really makes me think that thank goodness I am not faced with that fromt hood closure work. I know you said the Coupster helped you with the understanding of what to do, but this is not easy work at all. I have to say the Cellete fixture sitting in the background of thr photos makes me realise that datum is always there whatever you do. And with all that previous frontal damage without that Cellete security of mind how could you proceeed with confidence?
The hood to fender gaps are so important to get right and with so much sheet metal work to acheive that on this car, my mind boggles a bit in even following some of what you are attempting. I guess with it all in front of you its a bit easier to work out the next moves but, its certainly not easy an easy task. I look forward to ther next steps !

Well done!

Roy

[JTR70]

Always appreciate your comments and feedback Roy. Exactly, there is a lot all going on at once. I can only equate to developing a picture, little by little shapes and details steadily come into focus not to mention what the next series of steps will be to achieve that. Great observation, the cellette bench has been an incredible reference point along the way. Thanks again Roy, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Justin

Begin adding the lateral attachment points.
Nose fitment against the latched hood continues in the right direction. Only a single screw securing here at its center.
Time to begin adding some lateral attachments to further shore up its position. Begin fender brace install.
Almost time to introduce the original headlight buckets as it goes.
The OG buckets have only some mild rust and accident damage; definitely savable. BTW these have a unique spine relief shape along the bottom. My OG T1 and '58 T2 buckets do not have this so I assume this is another 356B transitional change.
Early 901's share the same bucket shell and this lower spine relief shape though softer, can still be seen in the example above.

[JTR70]

The example is from my fathers old 901. A late production '65 / model year '66. Note the last three digits of its chassis number where stamped into the buckets. So technically the 363rd 911 for 1966. Didn't think the factory was still numbering body components to a chassis this late in the game.

Anyway, prepping for the fender braces:
Will be fitting and installing the braces in two pieces. Fitment and placement goes much easier and cleaner with the conduit and horn mount separated from the lower sections. Another lesson learned during the coupster build.
Harvesting and reusing the original brace tabs from the old nose.
Being heavier gage they survived just fine and will only need some restrengthening.
Begin cutting the new braces apart at the horn mount. Notice the lazered in precuts at the end of this brace? The manufactures no doubt thought this was a handy feature to make our lives easier. In reality it just added another correction step as I'd have to weld and dress those runs. More on that next.

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[roy mawbey]

Interesting Justin this method of fitting ther new brace mounts. I must look to see if my 59 ( produced around Feb of that year has those spline relief shpes in thre buckets. To get that assembly fitted you would think it would be welded in as one piece. Just one more thing you found out by experience on that Coupster it went better in two pieces.

The same best wishes to you all for Christmas and the New Year !

Roy

[JTR70]

Hi Roy, Your car being such a late '59 I would think you'd find those in there. I'm interested in knowing if they are. What was your chassis # again? Yes, its much easier and cleaner to install the brace and conduit for the headlights separately. My very best to you as well in the coming New year!

Justin

[JTR70]

New fender brace prep:
Along with those pre-cuts at the end this is another added feature the manufacture put it that I wished were note there. While these turned edges add a bit more rigidity it isn't correct and since these are always visible they detract from the restorations authenticity.
Conduit and horn mount cut free and now onto fitting the new brace without their interference.
Original tabs bolted to brace at center of its slot for future adjustments. Can't go any further until those inner pre-cuts were welded up.
Originally this end is folded in on itself creating a double wall strength footing. If i went with their pre-cuts I would end up with a much weaker single walled footing. Not correct and not as secure. Copper backing clamped and ready to weld.
Welded, dressed and ready to begin folding the ends for trial fitment.

[JTR70]

Now onto folding the end over as done originally. This was just some place to start. The folding would go up further as the fitment progressed.
Back to trial fitments with the bolt centered in the tab slot. The fold at the tip was eventually increased as needed to get the needed length. I also began pounding those turned leading edges flat like they ought to be. I'll have to come up with backing dolly that can reach deeper into the corner to take out the rest of it.
Shooting for as square as possible while positioning it just past the second bumper mount hole as originally. Checking it with a conduit mock up as it went. Again the mounting options open up with the conduit and horn bracket gone for the moment.
Close enough for a tack weld and the tab set screwed into the nose. All just preliminary as slight changes were sure to come.
With conduit reintroduced you can see already how much adjustment change there is from where it was weld at the neck. The headlight bucket isn't even there yet and it too will be changing where the end of that conduit needs to be. You could of course fit it as a unit and compromise where needed to get it to work but why; its so much easier and cleaner to build to suit in stages. Just because its sold this way doesn't mean you shouldn't question it, cut it apart and make it work for you instead of the other way around.

Thanks for looking.

Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin my chassis is 106954. There is so much involved in every part of this body restoration! I watched on TV a program of a new company starting classic car restoration. A well known buyer of classic cars bought a 356A standard convertable almost a barn find with so much needed on the outside let alone underneath. He aaked the company for a quote to fully restore it. He paid £150,000
for this car and seemed to think after restoration he would make money!! They took a week or so to provide a quote of £150,000 . I reckon was expecting £20,000 . All he said was well I won't make any money at £300,000 . So of course he declined. A fool and his money are soon parted. Never buy an old 356 without a full PPI.

Roy

[JTR70]

Yours is a later one but I thought it would have been in the late 107-108 chassis number ranged based on those 356B style front signal lenses. Maybe its one of the first group to receive that change? 20K really? That was the going rate for just for floors and longitudinals in the early'90's and guys were still whining about giving the job away. This collectors first 356 experience(and last) I'm sure..

[JTR70]

Right side brace and further nose setting.
Repeat right side. All just initial placement but I needed some lateral anchoring at this point to continue on dialing in the new noses final position.
Left side was laying in there nicely against the hood but that was pretty much the case from the start.
By contrast the right profile against the hood continued to drop out. I'd have to really crank on it to get it to come out but that in turn distorted the way the rest of the nose was fitting.
Using my original undamaged reference car the distance from the bump stop to the outer edge of the horn grill was 21 and an 8th inches. Not an absolute, just a measurement to shoot for. Very close to that here.
Right side by contrast was easily a half inch back. This explained part of the issues out at the edge of the hood on this side. Again it would not just come out without a fight. It began to dawn on me that the trigger point was in the trough and I'd be relief cutting eventually. This was not the only issue... that up next.

Thanks for looking.

Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin, this is so interesting your attempts to get this right. Its a complex problem indeed. When I bought my car in the 60's those original factory front indicator lights were already showing a few marks under the chrome and a friends 56 car were different. I checked it out years ago and yes, its a 356A T2 change they made in 58/59. The 356B version is different to the T2 version. Mine have the correct K numbers embossed on them and now they are rare items if you need them.

Roy

[JTR70]

Hi Roy, Yes, a lot going on at once. Interesting, I thought for sure just a super late transitional change.

[JTR70]

More adjustments:

Cut the left corner free from the trough to allow the needed movement without distortion to the right side fitment.
Continuation off of the edge of the hood improved immediately and without force.
Also making sure the angle of the nose matches my Original reference as closely as possible. Not too angled back or too vertical. This is where dedicated locating and holding jigs like the factory used would make life much simpler.
Not only the angle of the nose but bucket opening in relation to one another. Bruce Baker educated me last time that level across the openings is what you're shooting for but a little "wall-eyed" angle is okay but never cross eyed. This initial check shows it slightly walled eyed with inner edges of the openings in contact with about an 8th inch gap at the outer edges. Another detail you have to as it goes.

[JTR70]

A couple more fitment and location issues:
As I was getting the upper portion of the nose set around the hood a new problem cropped up. The lower skirt height was too high. As I was planning ahead to the eventual cutouts for the bumper irons The bottom of the eventual needed hole would have ended up right at the 90 degree turn. Way too deep and leaving only a razor thin strip of metal at the edge. After referencing an original, the above photo highlighted by the paint stick shows where this hole should be cut at its lowest. Nose was unscrewed from where I had it to allow this movement downward.
Cross measured from the bottom of the grill opening to the top of the bumper bracket against my original once again for further confirmation that this was correct. It was, the nose was mounted a touch too high.
A slight exaggeration here but that initial gap I had been chasing was obliterated. The edge and trough were just installed a touch too low for my purposes. I'm not going to compensate with lead so more cutting and correction was in store.
If that wasn't enough the trough also pushes the nose over to the right with the hood sitting in it. Measurements from the battery box to the grill openings confirmed that the nose was sitting slighty to the right of the frame and not perfectly centered with it.

Once all this was weighed the decision to cut the trough out entirely and begin again in a sense was a no brainer. Center of the hood highlighted in tape and in process here of centering the nose with it. More to come..

Thanks for looking!

Justin

[roy mawbey]

Justin I can understand now why you are completing this most difficult assembly of parts instruction in installments !! This is enlightning as you are correct in saying the factory had apart from the Cellette bench but also fixtures and jigs produced for all the reasons above. I remember some of my toolmaking life apart from press and die work being involved with jig and fixture work !!

There is never enough time spent in explaining the need of these items in so many restoration manuals. So much harder without them and your explanations hightlight this and should be noted by those not really aware of what can happen trying to do this type of work.

Well done in establishing things so leading would be a minimum !!

This element of the work is taxing my old brain just hope it all works out Justin . Its very interesting to watch all this going on !

Roy

[JTR70]

Hapy new Year Roy! Yes, this process was making my old brain hurt as well which is why it was tough to get motivated to rehash all of this online until recently. Absolutely, dedicated jigs and fixtures makes life a whole lot simpler. Thanks again! Justin