356 slow cranking starter

[MMW]

Do 356 starters have more horsepower than VW starters? Can my problem be it's a VW starter?

I have been chasing a slow cranking starter for awhile now. Today I decided to put another bushing in. Last spring I installed a rebuilt starter but not a bushing since I had installed one a year earlier. The new bushing from Stoddard was actually .002" id larger that the one I took out. After installing the new one it still cranks slow. While the starter was out I started looking at the numbers. The rebuilt starter that is in the car has a vw # on the housing but it is definitely a 356 nose as the solenoid orientation is correct. The numbers are EF<6VO,5PS & under that is a VW # 113911021B.

I have a 1 year old battery that checks out good, all connections & grounds have been cleaned including the trans to body one. I don't have any issues with the solenoid engaging. When it cranks it just seems to really struggle. Timing is correct & it also does it with the coil wire disconnected.

I remember reading somewhere an extensive list about vw & porsche starters but can't find it now.

[bbspdstr]

Mic, you wrote:

"I remember reading somewhere an extensive list about vw & porsche starters but can't find it now."


Brad Ripley at NLA in Reno has always been the go-to guy for that info, or Paul Domitrovic at Stoddard Parts. Good mechanics make the best parts people.

-Bruce

[S.J.Szabo]

Mr.MMW:

There should be little difference: early Porsche starters were from VW.

It has been my experience that when a starter's operation begins to drag (and the grounds from starter to chassis have been verified), the issue is often too close proximity between stator and rotor or worn brushes.

Even tho the starter has been "rebuilt", if it was me, I'd pull off the starter's end bell and check for:

- Unfresh brushes.

- Worn end-bell bushing.

Just a thought.

[roy mawbey]

Mic,

I could write a book about this..... I guess? the problem is worst when the engine is hot? The T2 starter motor must have been in question before 1960 by the factory. They made a brush change to 4 instead of 2 sometime I believe in 59. My motor still original is a 2 brush system and they are as new.

However, like you I replaced the earth wire from battery to chassis, made the transmission wire contact as new, and cleaned all contact area's. Apart from that like you, I removed the old transmission bushing and replaced with new. The solinoid always without question advances the pinion to engage but even there I shortened the wire to the starter which was green and frayed.

I know inside the solinoid end box on the starter which is riveted on there are copper contacts but because the solinoid works I can't see how it affects cranking speed.( I was going to clean those hidden contacts )

So, I know when I bought my car in the 60's there was no problem it fast hot or cold. Then I had other 356 cars to drive, then company cars and the 356A was driven less often.

In the 80's it seemed to slow I changed the brushes made no difference then over the next 25 years all the things mentioned above and still after slight improvements its still slow but always starts.

So as SJ mentioned and even Joe Leonni advised me the stator if it drops down to come close to the field windings it will affect things.

I measured the output shaft from the starter and there is minimal wear and likewise the old bushing was not badly worn at all maybe overall 0.002".

So.... you say your VW motor was reconditioned. Did they rewind the armature windings? I would think if they did and also the brushes it would turn your motor over faster than at present.

So many owners have this problem in my mind if the grounds, the connections and the solinoid are not suspect then we are left with one item possibly nearly 60 years old that might just be causing this. The long 10mm diameter wire that takes the juice from the battery direct to the starter. As you know it very stiff to move and its very bent in places.

I have since last year been meaning to raise the back of the car and check the resistance of this wire by meter whilst someone else cranks the starter. I would of course check the resistance value first without starting then see what happens. If I was not happy I would rig up a brand new wire from the battery ( not going through the loom) just to see if it made the difference.

I know now you can buy this core copper sized wire in multi strand as well which makes it much easier to bend.

This diatribe is so long but Mic, I recon its something more simple than your VW starter. After all these VW buses all have the same as yours no doubt but also long wires from the battery.

Roy

[MMW]

The rebuilt starter that I put in was on a friends shelf & he had it rebuilt at some time by a local rebuild shop. I know that most places like this try their best but don't load test them. The starter is always suspect even though it is rebuilt & what does that mean exactly? I'm not sure but it did look fresh. I did pull off the small end cap & the bushing looked tight & had some fresh grease in there. I did not pull it apart enough to check the brushes.

The battery is 1 year old & checks out good with a hydrometer, a volt meter & also when cranking with the headlights on they stay almost bright. The starter is rebuilt, & a new bushing installed in the trans. The battery to body neg. cable is new & clean. The battery positive terminal is new & the cable where it attaches to it is clean. The transmission to body cable is clean but is original so I will probably replace it. All terminals on the starter are clean including the "flag" terminal that goes from the solenoid into the starter. The heavy cable terminal end looks good & clean where it attaches to solenoid. That would leave (as Roy suggested) the long cable from the battery to the starter. I had thought about running a jumper from the battery to the starter just to try it but haven't yet as I have never heard of that being an issue. Not even sure how you would replace that? Find an alternate route for it?

I will have the old starter I pulled out redone & that way I can talk to the guy who does it & make sure what was done & what condition it is in. It was rebuilt maybe 10-12 thousand miles ago. This should be easy right, it's only a 57 year old car. It sure doesn't help that the starter is located where it is & my car is lowered also. Just a fun job all around & yes I did make a set of "magic" bolts that don't spin, I learned that quickly the first time I pulled one of these out.

I was hoping there was an easy solution that I missed but I'll keep trying different things until I get it.

[roy mawbey]

Mic,

Let me know how you get on, I am very interested. Also just for guys who have never removed and replaced a 356 starter probably without the car being on hoist. Getting it out is relatively easy but take care if laying on your back its heavy easy to fumble and drop it. That hurts I know that!

On replacing the top bolt is the hardest to insert through the hole in the transmission. You need to go to the left side of the car and place your hand over the top of the transmission when its possible to guide that bolt through the hole.

I expect you knew that, but I forgot last time and wondered why I couldn't do it

Roy

[bbspdstr]

Following is a note on this subject from an avid 356 enthusiast who worked on them (professionally) when new, Richard Shilling. He and I correspond about a slew of things, from model aircraft to high-tech welding (in which his wife Barbara is well renowned as an expert). I requested input on this starter topic and encouraged his participation on this site. We'll see if Shill comes on board, but he would be a great asset.

"Take a long 8' or so, jumper wire with two alligator clips. Helper holds one in the center of the positive battery post, the other end to the positive lead on a voltmeter, the negative either goes to the solenoid or to a jumper connected to the solenoid. Crank. If the wire from the battery to the back is bad, you get a high voltage reading. If it's good, it's a couple of tenths, if it's not, you read volts. Got this from the Sun Electric sponsored group "The Society of Automotive Testers"! They trained us - for free - on how to read a scope, a volt meter, etc. Then we went to the shops where we worked and sold Sun Electric equipment. I sold two Sun 1020 machines that way! Years later, at Arc Machines, I started a once a month, free class on orbital welding, first come - first served, max 5 to a class. We trained anyone that showed up: prospects, our customers, people who owned competitive equipment and didn't know how to use it, plumbers (United Association members) who wanted to get into high purity. By giving a real training class and not a sales pitch we sold a lot of equipment. Thank you Sun Electric! In the case of the guy with the starter, it's probably just the starter, but who knows?"

[roy mawbey]

Bruce,

Thank you very much for that info. I can tell you I have a friend like yours who is really good on the electrical side of things. I was getting myself tied up in knots between resistance and voltage your comments helped me, as well did a conversation this morning with my friend.

1). He like you thinks its unlikely to be the starter to battery wire even though its over 50 years old. He does make the point the copper wire diameter should be no less than 10 mm in diameter so voltage drop is not affected.
2). Providing the contacts at the battery pole and starter are perfect and without question the earthing points from battery to chassis earth and transmission to chassis earth are too, a check can be made to establish voltage drop. And like you say in your advice its using a voltmeter. ( I had in my head to check resistance that's incorrect as I have just had it explained to me!!.) For sure if you place a probe from the meter to the starter wire at the starter end you should get the very close to a 6v figure. But that is a check only of the cable not the chassis return path which then in total could equate to 0.4 volt.
A fully charged battery should offer slightly more than 6V but the
crank needs an rough estimated 1 HP that from a 6v source is 124 amps. Of course problems within the motor of bad brushes, field windings, commutator etc could make it even more difficult to get the power needed.

I asked my friend if I connected as above the probe of the volt meter to the end of the starter wire at the motor and the other to chassis earth and with care, cranked the motor he thought there would be some small extra voltage drop but not much. So if the volts dropped by say 2-3 volts to 3 volts you have a problem!! But because a return path of the voltage is always in question its not certain the starter wire is the culprit. Could be field windings etc

Now someone tell me surely a 12 volt system must help cars start better than 6V or am I missing something??

Roy

[S.J.Szabo]

Mr.Mawbey:

Oh, yeah; 12v of juice is indeed the magic elixir that makes a 356 seem modern. I converted during the Great Preservation of the Trusty Coupe back in '85 (which in the case of the starter, only required a 12v solenoid), with nary a moment of regret.

Of course, worn bushings, bad grounds, etc. can still immobilize a starter on 12v, but even then, it takes longer to notice a problem. Even then, wear issues are less prominent. Between a wide choice of easily available electric fuel pumps and less cranking revolutions, bushings and brushes seem to last forever.

The sad thing is that many folks don't understand just how easy (if you're cagey and no stickler for "originality") it is to convert. The only issues lie with ancillary instrumentation, which I solved with a 912 combo oil temp/press gauge; the fuel runs fine (if a little more nervous) on 12v. As a bonus, I replaced the old temp gauge with a voltmeter (easier to wire than the more desirable ammeter).

Plus, add-ons are a piece of cake... For my money, there's nothing like road work with Clapton on CD leaning into "Keys to the Highway" thru a fair pair of compound speakers, while the glasspak thrums a meaty bass in the background.

Ain't life grand? Well anyway, it has its moments that you just can't get when a 356 sits cosseted in a warm garage.

[MMW]

So before my trip to Hershey I decided to check connections again. We all do this when second guessing everything we lay our hands on. Upon re-tightening the battery cable to the solenoid stud I either had a bad angle or to much muscle or an already compromised solenoid as the stud broke right of with a chunk of plastic. So out came the starter again, swapped solenoid with the one from the starter I had removed a few days earlier & re-installed. The inside of the solenoid was bright & clean as it should be because it was new.

Cranks over better now but not quite the way I want it to. On my trip to Hershey it cranked over every time except first thing Saturday morning when it struggled. I was actually thinking I would have to push start it. However every time after that it was ok. I plan on trying Richard's advice via Bruce (thanks Bruce) when I get some time.

Somebody at Hershey mentioned it might be the ignition switch. Am I correct the switch would only affect the solenoid engaging & ignition power but doesn't have anything to do with the actual cranking?

[bbspdstr]

Yes, the starter switch has internal contacts that are stamped from thin brass and those have taken the load to the solenoid from the thick red wire to the thick black wire (a lot of amps) but do not affect the cranking once the solenoid is engaged.

When there is a problem with anything connected to the switch, I usually offer to open it up and check (and usually replace) the contact 'plate.' Those plates are usually burned, compromising the flow of electricity and can be VERY unpredictable, working fine, then not.....but in your case, who knows?

It's likely internal wear of the starter motor, not the solenoid and thus not the switch, but it could be related. A check of the switch would still be a good idea after all these years and for protection, a relay added, transferring the juice from the battery to #50 to the solenoid, merely signaled by the starter switch.

Over the years, I have found that inconclusive electrical gremlins take either 5 minutes or 5 hours to find and fix, but as these old cars age, that guesstimate goes up exponentially and the "shotgun approach" becomes more justified.

-Bruce

[roy mawbey]

Guys,

All your comments are interesting. SJ I think you are correct that 12v has to be better and you have proved it.

However this really bugs me the cranking speed. In the 60's when I drove the car the 6 volt starter worked fine hot or cold I am a bit pig headed but see no reason why it still should not operate well and yesterday I did a few checks.

1). Although it could be the starter motor internals the problems started after not using the car for a long period. Car always dry and in a garage. As explained above I cleaned all the grounds and even the copper strap taking the juice from the solinoid to the motor. Note,the solinoid always works to move the pinion into the flywheel gear but I still made sure all the ignition switch wires were okay. I did not strip down the switch because as said before the contacts though probably dirty have never caused the pinion to stop moving.

On my original starter the copper strap is attached to the starter case by a special form of rivet. I do not know if inside the casing the connection is bad to the field windings.

When I replaced the front bushing I bought a new earth strap for the battery to chassis earth on the floor of the battery box sheet metal
as well as all the other grounds being as good as I can get.

2). WHAT I DID YESTERDAY.

Took the car for a run to get it really warm. It started as usual much better than when hot.

Came back and drove the front of the car up to my closed 'white painted' garage door. Turned off then before cranking turned the headlights to full on so I could see them on the door. Then cranked the engine. 4 slow cranks as usual ( about 6 seconds ) the engine fired up. BUT... the lights dimmed completely for the 6 seconds! Then came back on directly it fired up.

3). I have a QUESTION ! To me it really makes me wonder about the earthing? The battery strap is connected to the battery floor by a bolt. When I removed the bolt to change the strap the last time I polished the surface which looked like from memory a washer attached firmly to the floor. I only polished the top surface. but... could that washer be rusted to the floor?? The battery box still has the factory underseal. Then I looked under the car and can see a nut directly below the bolt that holds down the strap.

Is that a captive nut welded on the underside. Again covered in original factoryseal.

Guys I am wondering if my assumption of cleaning the top face of this washer that I attached the strap to is ONLY PART OF THE EARTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE BRIGHT AND CLEANED?

I could not check this because of time, I needed to be elsewhere

Any view on this, are my thoughts crazy.I wonder what Mic thinks too?
after all its his thread I am poaching!! My battery like his is fully charged and in very good condition.

Roy

[roy mawbey]

Okay Guys,

After my last post explaining my next actions especially for Mic I can advise the following with photos below:

1). I removed the brass bolt, one small washer and one brass plated larger washer. All were in good condition as expected no dirt or contamination.

2). I then looked down on the battery box floor to see a shiney washer face the same diameter as the one taken off. As I thought this washer was firmly fixed to the floor. I removed all the factory floor sealant like rock from around the circumference and then tapped it with a screw driver and mallet. Nothing it was stuck! I began to think it was solid down the the captivation nut under the car. I hit it harder and viola it popped off!! The rusty ,dirty face was exposed.

3). I then carefully cleaned the face of dirt and rust.

4). Replaced everything so now I have for sure one bolt, one small washer and 2 larger washers.

I then started the car much faster, then got it hot and on return as described in my last post directed the headlight on the garage door and restarted the car. Only a slight drop in headlights on the door and it turned over 85% faster. Repeated 5 times on the trot. All okay.

Pic 1 shows the bolt, small washer and 2 large washers

Pic 2 shows the contaminated surface when the stuck washer was removed.
Pic 3 The cleaned surface to attach the washers. ( it seems the area which contains the captivated nut is leaded in place or soldered I found evidence

Pic 4 All attached in place.

I do not know if new battery box floors have this earthing connection as my area is still all factory including the tired battery cover!!









Treating myself to a beer tonight I am that pleased

Roy

[MMW]

Holy xxxx Roy! I did the same thing once I removed the battery cable from the floor. I tapped on the washer with a hammer & screwdriver & when it didn't come off I figured as you did that it was part of the captive nut fixed to the battery floor. I just polished the top of it. Mine too is the original floor here so now I can't wait to try as you did. I hope I have as much success as you!

No worries on poaching the thread, it is all about knowledge. I am like you, pig headed & know this should work on 6 volts.

[S.J.Szabo]

Aw, jeeze! I went thru this same process with the work on the coupe and I should have thought to mention it. I plead geezerhood.

As a means to make up for it, I will note this: while you're at this, run a tap down the captured nut to boot, as the bolt plays a part in this grounding scenario.

PS: WD-40 conducts electricity.

PPS: I also forgot to mention another benefit of running 12v: the larger dia. wire used for 6v means less resistance to 12v, and, with 12v, you run fewer amps thru switches (like the ign sw.).

And the hits just keep on comin'.