No announcement yet.

356 reproduction sheet metal

This is a sticky topic.
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    "Rockers, I have some NOS ones we might use. Otherwise the new ones from RD look nice and I believe that Bruce and/or Justin have had good experience with these."

    I can get them un-assembled and put them together to fit best. I not long ago was offered a pair of NOS rockers when I bought a pair of NOS Roadster doors. They were "shelf worn" and intact, but in need of some work and for the asking price of $600 each, I passed and bought RD parts.

    I needed only one side for a '56 Carrera GS Speedster, used an RD version and while it's true that one can't see both sides at the same time, I really can't see a difference between original and replacement (with a little fine-tuning on the replacement).

    I will also add that the Stoddard units are OK as well. Trevor (Gates) may chime in on this. I have plenty of experience of long as the 356s needing them were T-1>

    As for a cowl, Rick Mullin just made a cowl/dash for a Speedster. He called me Wednesday and asked about how/where the "Porsche" emblem holes were oriented, so I made a template from a Speedster here which I will take to him on Monday (before or after the eclipse). I asked about the car's original dash and he said that it was "too far gone to be accurate."

    Rick is also the guy who eschewed a Trevor (Marshall) nose for a pre-A and bought an NOS A nose for the same '55 Speedster and moved the appropriate openings to pre-A positions. He says that while Trevor's parts are fine for most shops or individuals, he puts as much finish work into those that he may as well make his own. I wish I had his talents and equipment. I'd likely say the same thing.

    Justin? Rockers?



    • #17
      Hi Bruce,

      I have a lead on a NOS cowl and a good used one. Will probably go that way.

      Whose longitudinal do you prefer to use? I remember Justin? complaining about the general shape of some of the reproductions being off.



      • #18
        "the new ones from RD look nice (and I believe that Bruce and/or Justin have had good experience with these)....I can get them un-assembled and put them together to fit best."

        That RD is the Canadian 'Restoration Design.'(this thread, #36153)

        Joris, I often post things here when in a hurry and am not clear. I draw pictures that are more clear than my word pictures!

        Glad you have leads on two units...better than only one and either would work if the 'used' is not ruined and gleaned from a decent "parts car" (maybe back when we had such donors.)



        • #19
          I liked the Simonsen rockers I used on the coupster alright. I used RD rockers on my personal coupster project and both seem very much comparable. I have seen the real early RD rockers before the company changed hands to Alex's family and they were pretty rough so they have been much improved. As for detail authenticity here are a couple of examples that stand out:
          Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5343.JPG
Views:	285
Size:	50.9 KB
ID:	90743
          embossed reliefs at the torsion hole are shallow and weak as compared to the original. (Simonsen)
          Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5346.JPG
Views:	283
Size:	32.1 KB
ID:	90744
          Original with deeper and crisp embossed opening. Won't really matter once the torsion plug is installed but Joris is looking for comparative differences.
          Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5345_LI.jpg
Views:	268
Size:	49.4 KB
ID:	90745
          Original thresholds have this tapering pleat just ahead of the flange.
          Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5344.JPG
Views:	270
Size:	57.0 KB
ID:	90746
          I've never seen a new rocker with this detail. I don't know why it was originally put in as its obviously not necessary but it is a tell tail sign. Again its another detail which will be lost once the car is assembled with the rubber runner that goes over this area.

          As for longitudinal replacements; after all that I've been through and learned wrestling with such a decayed chassis I am of the opinion that this replacement section should be made from 18 gauge not 20 gauge as it is offered through most vendors. Especially for an open car, on a coupe you can get away with it because of the triangulation strength of the roof but if I had it to do over again I'd go 18 on all chassis structural components. 20 gauge is for fenders and bodywork. 18 gauge should be used for anything "chassis" related especially on such an integral section such as this. Hell, originally it must have been constructed from at least 19 gauge.

          Justin Rio


          • #20
            Originally posted by JTR70" post=39622
            Hell, originally it must have been constructed from at least 19 gauge.

            Thanks for the pointers Justin. If we get the new rocker from RD which you will have to assemble yourself I am sure that Jon will be able to massage that little detail in.

            On the longs. I have a late style NOS one with the jack spur attached. I will take some measurements to determine the thickness and report back here



            • #21
              I had to order a jack spur for a 64. I believe I have an original but ordered one from sierra madrre and one from restoration design. I found a surprising difference between the three.
              Click image for larger version

Name:	CIMG1997.JPG
Views:	266
Size:	26.0 KB
ID:	97206
              This is the three, original on left, black one RDs
              Click image for larger version

Name:	CIMG1998.JPG
Views:	262
Size:	33.6 KB
ID:	97207
              Click image for larger version

Name:	CIMG1999.JPG
Views:	263
Size:	36.4 KB
ID:	97208
              Sierra madre
              Click image for larger version

Name:	CIMG2000.JPG
Views:	274
Size:	31.4 KB
ID:	97209
              restoration design

              The obvious difference is the size of the square tubing insert. The original measures around 4.25mm, Sierra 2.65mm RD 1.75.

              Hope this might help someone looking for a jack spur in finding the better one. Also the one by RD was german made by JP Group


              • #22
                I need to make a new set of headers for my engine run in stand. I want to incorporate Oxygen and exhaust gas temp to the stand. Went looking for exhaust flanges and tube. Flanges are available but stupid expensive. You can not buy them with a section of pipe welded on them any more. So l will have to make them. Been 45 years since I did this when I put a turbocharger on a 356.

                The Flange is easy, 5/16 or (8mm) flat bar, the pipe is 1-1/2 .060 (25mm 1.5mm) both available. Bending in stright forward. The round to square transition is challenging. So if a part not available anymore, make it.

                Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02-2.jpeg
Views:	294
Size:	81.6 KB
ID:	100457

                Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02.jpeg
Views:	285
Size:	76.6 KB
ID:	100456

                Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02-3.jpeg
Views:	275
Size:	54.4 KB
ID:	100458
                Pushed around since 1966.


                • #23
                  So to square the tube I need a tool. Went to the good old scrap pile for materials. I made a internal mandrel, tube guide and a crimp tool. Works fine, you start with crimp tool, big C-Clamp Crush the pipe into an oval, a little over 5/8" IDA . Then put on the external guide, this allows you to hold and position the tube when the mandrel is clamped to a bench. Heat the pipe to red, tap on the external guide to begin to shape the outside. The continue to heat and press the tube over over the mandrel, or press the Mandrel into the hot pipe. The oval stretches to a rectangle, the external guide is help position the tube and shape the outside by striking the guide with a hammer.

                  Internal mandrel, just a little larger than the exhaust gasket, I made it from 3 sections oh 5/8 square stock welded together. Then ground the end for a insertion to slide and expand the hot tube. The external guide is about 1/8" all around bigger than the inside of the gasket. After the tubing is heated the guide is tapped over the oval about 3/4 - 1-1/2 down the tube starting to form a rectangle.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02-4.jpeg
Views:	278
Size:	56.6 KB
ID:	100460
                  It's not pretty, but it works, the center section is a foot long so it can be clamped to a bench, or works as a handle when driving into the pipe with a hammer.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02-5.jpeg
Views:	277
Size:	84.4 KB
ID:	100461
                  Shown is the external guide, with a section of the 5/8" square inside the oval tube. I know it's not pretty or painted but I only need a couple flanges.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	image_2018-05-02-6.jpeg
Views:	265
Size:	63.6 KB
ID:	100462

                  Works well. I just wish I had not given away my blacksmith shop two months ago. But I have a 30 year old cowboy nephew in Colorado that makes steel roses.

                  More on the headers and insrtumentation later.
                  Pushed around since 1966.


                  • #24
                    "I know it's not pretty or painted but I only need a couple flanges."

                    ......OR, you could have called me. I have a pile of old mufflers just for that- 'donor' was too much time to cut off good tubing and flanges at the time of replacement, so the pile of rusted mufflers just grew. I would have hacked off a couple for you, JB.....and saved you all that time. Free. Time.

                    I know somewhere in my stash of "stuff" I also have two or more NEW flanges. Those likely were from Dave at Bursch, who I would have called (if he is still there) if I were in your position. There are sources for flanges and sized tubing ends on a length of raw tubing. That said, you are now also a source.

                    Still, I am impressed with not only your craft but also the time you must have to exercise that craft..."the old fashioned way." No CNC or waterjet. No dies for punching. I really respect and admire that approach. Skill and time are to be envied in all facets of our work.

                    Thank you for your illustration of "356 blacksmithing," cool hot work.

                    I'll look if you are interested, but I think I may still have my old head temp (CHT) and exhaust temp (EGT) sensors and connecting leads from my racing days, maybe even the gauges and switches. I had it so that when a slow Speedster like mine was on a long straight I could check cylinders 1, 2 and 4, as #3 was the default position out of habit even though the oil coolers were external, up front. At least it was something to do other than wave at the corner workers.



                    • #25

                      Thanks for the kind words. I have the instrumentation in hand. I could use a 1.5Kw water brake If there is an extra one in your stash pile.
                      Pushed around since 1966.


                      • #26
                        JB, if I had one it would be yours....but I've never had one, sorry.



                        • #27
                          Need to replace nose and tail for 356 T5 1960 coupe. Are the nose and tail from Trevor Hammerworks still the preferred option.
                          1960 356B T5 - under major resurrection.
                          356 Registry main thread;
                          1968 912 - running like a scalded cat.


                          • JTR70
                            JTR70 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Trevor Makes great parts. He's told me the reason his noses are made from several sections is that is allows to get all the detail lines and curves much more correctly and crisp. Don't know about the Chinese single stamped versions offered.

                        • #28
                          A rant this morning!!!!

                          I've been doing floors/structural on a '58 coupe for the last 12 months or so. Coming out very nice. BUT, some of the struggles with repro sheet metal really make it not very fun. I'm not talking about the big stuff. I get that the cars were made by hand and fenders and hoods and things are going to take some work. Its the little things that aren't right, that could so easily be made so that are getting to me.

                          Yesterday I went out to do the toeboard mounts on the new floor. I had a pair of new mounts, bought from RD over a year ago. Simple task , right? Wrong! The new toeboard is wider and taller than original. If I install this thing without modification, the toeboard is going to not sit flat. Its going to be out at the bottom, towards the rear of the car by nearly 1/2 inch! Of course this would move the base of the gas pedal back by the same amount too, and make for the pedal sitting flatter than it should. How in the hell can you not make a toeboard mount correctly? I had in the shop a car with original mounts, and two cars with other repro mounts for comparison. The new RD toeboard mount is too tall, and too "wide" (meaning the distance from front to back. Just pissed me off! Wasted the day for a $20 dollar part that could just as easily have been made correctly as incorrectly.

                          Now what do I do? Order another one, from somebody else? Will I get one any better? Or make it myself?

                          I had a similar problem when doing the longitudinals. The heater tube supports were wrong. The overall outside dimensions were correct, but the hole for the heater tube was in the wrong place. Only a by about 1/4 inch, but it might as well have been a mile. I very carefully compared the new supports to the originals, and the RD repros were clearly wrong. They punched the right hole, in the wrong spot. I spent a ton of time fixing this. Wound up making my own form, and manufacturing my own heater tube supports. They were a little crude, but at least they fit right. Very time consuming, and I threw away good money on parts I couldn't use.

                          I am thankful people make parts for our cars. But sometimes I've gotta shake my head and wonder. These are little things, easily fixed!


                          • #29

                            You are not alone on this matter, You would think if you were making retro items to sell then at least you would make templates from an original car. I am fortunate the majority of my car is original, but parts I did need over 40 years ago when repro parts were rare, I made myself. I notice even on Justins thread about the 356 convertible D he is having to restore properly, he is making many parts to suit. Not always easy and sheet metal tools make it easier but at least, he can see they will fit. To have holes punched out of position must have been so annoying for you.

                            So many times Justin has said its so good to have another 356 to compare with. Actually I quite like making parts but accept forming tools would be nice to have. When I was an apprentice press toolmaker back in the early 60's I had all the tools to do this work in factory I worked in. Always promised myself at least an old fly press but never did get one!

                            Good to hear you are still working away on the car.



                            • #30
                              Thanks Roy. Nice to hear from you. Well, I'm not still working on "the car". But at least I am working on a car. All my own projects have been sitting mostly untouched for the past year and a half. I keep getting suckered into working on friend's cars. Currently its 104646. Dale says "there's a couple soft spots on my rear floors, can you help me fix them?" "Sure" I say, "bring it on over". Well, the new floor is in now, after doing longitudinals, major work inside the rear frame sections, ledges all the way around, step plates, door cell repairs, closing panels, front struts, and a new k-brace. I'm my own worst enemy! Maybe why I got so frustrated at a couple of friggin' RD toeboard mounts that only vaguely resembled the correct shape.

                              So here is the new toeboard mount I fabricated in the shop yesterday, compared with a piece of original toeboard mount, carefully harvested to retain its original dimensions.Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7914.JPG
Views:	194
Size:	1.33 MB
ID:	107592
                              And here is the same home fabricated part laid on top of the RD cartoon floorboard mount.
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7915.JPG
Views:	189
Size:	1.17 MB
ID:	107593