58367 The $75 Junkyard Carrera coupe restoration

[bbspdstr]

Roy, that was my probably not-so-funny joke, capitalizing but not radicalizing the word Muslin and innocently involving the 18th century Hessians (who I think played a part in the American Revolution)...but, the A model shop manual actually calls the material gauze. It's a loosely woven fabric, like a wound dressing...also known as, yes, "gauze".....it was an adhesive promotion between the woven fabric inner side of the headliner and the painted/primer's metal, but hardly anyone uses that anymore...any more than that still-sticky sealer between the threshold carpet and the aluminum strip and rubber quarter-round seal for the door bottom. Those who have removed that aluminum strip and then sat down on the threshold to work on the door know what I mean......

Anyway, if your original A doesn't show the gauze at the visible ends on an a or b pillar, then if may be due to random lengths being applied...or maybe skipped on that one...but most original 356 cars, right on through from early to late had some, even like the early 900-series cars, the late C's had thin strips of thin vinyl as needed to bridge overlaps or inconsistencies under the headliner material.

The front and rear pinch-welds where the windscreen gaskets reside had small barbed clips here and there where the headliner was glued over that edge, so no gauze is usually in those areas, only the vertical areas from where the wrapped headliner may stray, as you note.

Scraps of headliner material was also the material of choice to gasket the round rear torsion bar access covers on the rockers. I have to cut the vinyl discs with scissors, as the fabric doesn't allow the punch I made to make a clean cut....nothing is 'quick and easy' in restoration.

-Bruce

[Jack Staggs]

Bruce this is off topic, but I would swear that I saw a pic somewhere of a fixture that you had when installing a lower door skin. Any ideas?

[spyderwerks]

Jack

You might be thinking of an article in an early Excellence magazine written by Harvey Smith. In it he shows a jig he mfd'd using angle iron and big C clamps welded to same to act as a heat sink along with holding the sheet metal at the correct angles.Most of the parts could be sourced at Home Depot.If you want I will find the article.

[JTR70]

Thanks Roy! Those last set of pics were great and answered a lot of questions.

Dick, thanks a lot for chiming in with that info on the pillar wraps and no you didn't muddy the water in the least. You just helped me make a much better presentation and final product than I would have otherwise so thanks again, appreciated!

Thanks Jack! You know leaving the screws in and cutting an opening for them after gluing was my initial plan but then the thought of watching the material stretch out as it gave birth to each screw head didn't appeal to me, they get covered either way of course but the tape makers worked out fine too. As they say "a hundred different ways up the same mountain." Yes, I remember seeing that photo of Bruce's holding jig for door skin repair, it had a run of windows in it to lay down the welds as it was clamped in position. I'm sure Bruce has that photo handy??
12/7/15
After Dick's last two post and the especially the shots of what AI does with their pillars on installation; original to my car or not adding in some cushioning was definitely the way I thought it should go.

While I was happy to just have this pillar wrapped clean and tightly the transfer of the raw shape of the pillar and the seam welds just makes it look too severe. Even more so after Dick brought the wrapping to my attention.

Didn't have any gauze or muslin but I did find this piece of felt or mohair I forgot I even had on hand. It was nice and thin and really seamed to fit the bill.

In the same box I had this section of hounds tooth. I thought about maybe wrapping it in this but eventually settled on the felt.

Like my concern with paint thicknesses before I am also very cautious with material thickness and their effect on crowding out the seals. I decided to cut my wrap just shy of the rubber mounting flanges.

Kept it off of the door seal surface as well. Its cut on the apex of the corner so once the cover is pulled tight it will be undetectable and it keeps the material thickness to the minimum. Also too, I still have a clean secure surfaces to glue to as Roy mentioned earlier.

To keep the shape smoother I had to adjust the felt to end right at the shoulder of the folded leading edge.

Gluing begins and I was loving the softer shape of it already.


The thickness was just right. I could still make out some of the seam weld shape but it was very mild and most importantly the pillar doesn't look "stuffed".

Transition of where the padding ends is undetectable and the material is just as thin down in the channel as if it still wasn't there.

Folded and shaped the lower edge to the contour of the metal lip down there.

So much happier with the final presentation with that strip of padding in there. I'll be redoing the right side next. Thanks again for all the great help and suggestions you guys!
Justin

[Don C]

Justin,
Nice job! I love your detail of cutting the felt short to match the fold over...well done!

[roy mawbey]

Justin,

The uprights look perfect. Dick is correct the pillars look so much better than mine without the welding or join marks. Bruce made me laugh as I realised I never had made any connection between the two types of cloth!! Justin your idea of just placing the felt in that chosen position is a good one. I think as Bruce also mentioned there is gauze under my uprights but probably only on the top surface.

Strange I always think I know quite a bit it about how they put these cars together. Then a small detail about A and B pillars makes me realise I have much more to learn

You will be pleased you did that when you look at them from the drivers seat.

Nice job.

Roy

[Phil Planck]

Jack
I think I have those on my computer at home. Can post them late Friday if not posted by then.
Phil

[bbspdstr]

http://www.bbakerent.com/clients.php

Old website- in "shop shots" center top: "door repair"

Phil, if you have better old picture file organization than I do and have better pictures, post 'em, please! This is for Jack in the meantime...pirating Justin's thread as we are.

The device I made is, in fact, based on a late Harvey Smith idea. From miscellaneous metal found around my shop, I bowed 3/8" bar stock to match the contour of a good door at the usual measurement up that the repro repair door skin bottoms use. Those lower outer skin parts are sold flat, so I roll them a bit to get the subtle curve, but I have no way to get the tight reverse and corner and those repros are relatively inexpensive.

The line on the skin is a "measure down to" mark for reference of where the crimped door bottom edge is to be when finished.

The clamps are modified for the draw/depth needed, the weld line is cut where the most advantageous access is on the inside of the door shell for dolly work when final hammering or slapping or shrinking is to be done.

The back-up on the inside is an old aluminum yardstick. If MIG is used, that doesn't stick to the aluminum and it is a heat-sink and keeps the weld on the inside smooth.

One of many simple fixtures that are from the mother of invention, necessity. Harvey gave me the idea and I'm sure someone has made a better version than mine since then. What I find most important is to recognize that the flat repair panel won't be an easy mating to the curved original skin of the door without some forming, jig or no jig, making even a small and relatively inexpensive 'English (or Chinese) Wheel' a necessity (or a sand bag and a careful application of mallet).

I usually just tack the seam with the low-crown clamping and TIG or gas-weld the seam a little bead at a time with nothing in the way, but a total MIG connect-the-spots is also useful for speed, lacing back and forth as far apart as possible with cooling time between tacks and checking with a light underneath/inside to be sure no pin-holes are left.

Be careful working a MIG'd butt-welded seam or .....ha!.... you may get a 'butt crack.'

Grinding the top of a MIG weld weakens an already 'cold' weld. Gas torch or TIG is safer and actually the only methods that allow hammering while the metal cools, forging the welded area while thinning the weld to counter shrinkage.

Nice headliner work Justin! Then, all your work is very nice. Glad to get the bar raised by example, thank you.

-Bruce

[Phil Planck]

Jack
Here is Bruce's fixture setup:



I have more of Bruce's showing bottom of door fixture

Here is my imitation of Bruce's setup:





Initial butt weld results:




I did as Bruce, my mentor, described above, and to me years ago.

I made my fixture from an old bed frame and laid the 2 pieces on the door before cutting off the lower to get the correct contour. Also had to bend notch and bend lengthwise to get front to back contour.

Phil

[merbesfield]

Phil,

What do you mean by this statement? I don't understand the part about the contour?

I made my fixture from an old bed frame and laid the 2 pieces on the door before cutting off the lower to get the correct contour. Also had to bend notch and bend lengthwise to get front to back contour.

[Phil Planck]

Mark
If you lay a long(3') straight edge along the door horizontally along the area where it will be cut off you will find that it only touches in one spot because the door outer is curved in that plane. Thus the clamping fixture has to match that curve. Same thing if you lay the straight edge vertically at the area of cutting off the rusted bottom where access can be gained from behind for planishing of the welds. I made a curved dolly that matches the vertical contour for planishing.


Welded a piece of black pipe to part of an old truck spring, filled it with lead shot for weight and put a cap on it.
Phil

[roy mawbey]

Phil and Bruce,

I know Justin won't mind me making a comment on the door repair fixture on his thread but that fixture is so very nice. You have no idea ( well no doubt you do, but I didn't ) what anxiety was caused for me in 1977 when I had to remove the lower bottom door skin at about the same height on my drivers door.

I carefully formed the replacement panel and with care formed the contours that made the door panel look really good for the butt type gas weld. I realised the fact I had to tack, then make small advances in stages to stop distortion but its so amazing how strong the door skin becomes when it does start to distort. I see Phil's special dolly he has made but from my memory there was not much room really to get in the door interior to hold anything against the butt weld? Am I wrong there??

I never achieved the perfect job, leaded it, and had to fill it as well. The repair looks okay even today no rust of course but... I know its not like the super fixturized weld on those photo's. If I had started gas welding with that repair I would have stopped doing it anywhere. It was lucky I made the door the last welding job on the car.I have never forgotten the mental pain I went through with that job.

Please tell me the door welding repair is one of the hardest you can do on a 356??? Or the fixture is the only way to success along with a Tig welder???

Roy

[John Pierce]

Bruce and Phil,

Thank you for posting about the door repair and jig. I've seen pictures of guys welding without any support and can't imagine the warping that must occur.

Justin: any way to take these posts and put them in a permanent sticky? It would go great with Tom's blog about his door repair.


John

[bbspdstr]

Phil and Bruce,.............
Please tell me the door welding repair is one of the hardest you can do on a 356??? Or the fixture is the only way to success along with a Tig welder??? Roy

Think of the door skin fixture like you would a rotisserie.

You can restore a car (in this case a 356) without either, but better results in less time come from using either of those tools. I made the first rotisserie due to a bad back and the angst of welding upside down when I was much younger. Now, it's less attractive for me to perform those tasks without the help of special tools.

I also did my own blasting, so the rotisserie helped with that, then assembly. All things involved became easier and the results better the more jigs and fixtures I made.

As late as the mid-'90s I reverted to welding that seam in a repair of a door, not using the fixture or a MIG, as a test of my abilities. It can be done, of course, but it's clumsy and time consuming even if clamped on a trestle that's weighted-down, as one must reach around with a dolly after welding a short bead and hammer that small section into the contour. You wind up shooting at a moving target and it's very tedious.

That's mainly due to that area being long and a very low crown. Now, it's a two man job, one holds the part of an old truck spring that IS the curve desired...into the door shell. Another man slaps the door skin outside with a "slapping hammer" (a file-like tool with a zig-zag to hold as a handle).

Back and forth, averaging the door skin a little at a time. It takes patience, coordination and ear protection for all. My piece of truck spring has a ground lower end to tuck into the bottom fold of the vertical and horizontal joining and goes about 3 inches above the typical seam in the skin.

It is VERY tight in the forward part of the doors, so often there is a need to use a little more than is desired of a filler (lead is used or other epoxy or polyester if not lead) but all this is predicated on time, money and skill.

Still, with the jig and a wedge in the tight area to secure the aluminum strip backing the seam, that is much easier to "work." Always press as you go (on the seam and adjacent parts of the door skin) to see if you are developing an 'oil can' effect. With off-dolly and heating techniques, the door skin can be tight and just the right compound curves with no filler...or a very modest amount near the very forward part of the seam.

There is more to it, but that is the basic overview. All I can say is that after a few hundred doors or so, I, personally, am getting better at it....and the jig has made it easier. For those who are doing one or two doors, I'd likely recommend the whole skin from someone like Trevor Marshall. Take the old skin off and put a new one on with total access to the inner shell before re-assembly. That's especially if there is inner frame rust or collision damage involved.

Hope this helps add some to what Phil posted. Yes, I agree with John, a way for anyone to search for collected "door" or "lid" repair techniques or Justin's "headliner" installation...or "paint suggestions" would be a draw for others to become involved here on this wonderful site.

And as for Justin, we all should not just clap, we should also throw money. "Thanks" does not 'feed the bulldog.'

-Bruce

[roy mawbey]

Bruce,

Thanks a lot for your time in really answering my questions so well. It actually makes me feel a lot better on my antics almost 40 years ago with that door. When you say after a couple of hundred doors you can feel more confident then it was no wonder I felt in the deep end drowning at the time.

You are so correct this site as both of us have said a number of times is really so useful for anyone thinking of doing rather difficult work on a 356. And yes, if that bulldog needs some food I would be more than pleased to send him a bone

Roy