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Door to front fender ( wing ) gapping

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  • Door to front fender ( wing ) gapping

    After reading and looking closely at Phil's work to get the correct gapping on the door to the front fender and his great advice on the door panel installation tool from Wivco I can now finally get to grips as to why the gap on my car is at its worst just over 5mm in some areas.

    1). My wings ( fenders ) are original when I bought the car the body paint was original and the interior still is. But, the even though the car was just under ten years old when I bought it tell tail bubbles started appearing I guess almost from when I bought it as a daily runner. Proceed forward to 1975 and I knew it needed bodywork repairs and then over about 3 years I cut and replaced areas we all know about now. Then I had to cut and form the repair panels and I leaded them. As I have mentioned more than once, often I had to be over generous with the lead!!

    2). The first mistake in 77 was not to take the body down to bare metal before I sprayed it for the first time. I knew about sand blasting then but not media blasting. DIY for me was a block and removing the top surface of my meissen blue except where I welded here I sanded to remove all paint.

    3). In 77 I had the meissen blue matched. A mistake that colour is special in it mix of blue and green very hard to copy unless you know the mix. I had little idea where to go then with the door paint code.
    4). Wind on to 89. The repair work was still good but I knew then more about where to get the colour code paint. My 77 spray was made using a home made set up a beer barrel receiver my friend said would be fine, a pump that was too small and a gun that was not the best.
    Also I was spraying cellulose and still used this 89 but now with a hired compressor with 7CFM good spray gun and a large receiver with a super mixed paint to the paint code.

    But again I just flattened the paint for preparation. Big mistake. After 25 years it has the small micro blisters on some flat areas of the car which must be caused from the paint layers underneath. Also
    the door shut area's are now of course after thinking about it very thick with old and new paint!!

    My next post to this thread shows the photos I took yesterday to explain more.

    Roy

  • #2
    Roy
    Good topic. What is the current thickness of your hem flange?
    Phil

    Comment


    • #3
      Phil,

      The thickness of tbe hem flange varies from the top by the windscreen to the bottom by the top of the rocker panel. At the top on that nice graceful curve from the windscree area to the beginning of the vertical drop down the hem flange is as perfect as you could get on both sides. The bending of the hem has been made to flatten to a thickness of about 2.5mm. This would be more than perfect if it had stayed that way going down.

      But then the hem which is about 10mm wide has a thickness in places of at least 5- 6mm and furthermore it has not been compressed flat it has an angle and seem to have a much bigger edge radius than on the nice curve above. If I could open the hem and clean out the possible calk? behind it and use that tool you found it would transform my gapping. I can see the door edge that misses the hem by a fraction. Remember, My door hinges have never been removed, the door fit is as factory. The original paint is still somewhere under the hem. The original tar panels in the door shut are still there. I have never removed the windscreen the area's are original. But.. there are two resprays on top of the original. If that added a mm even that would improve the gapping. I have a gap on both doors at the front fender that is maximum 5.5mm at the middle of the door. Some of this could be improved possibly by lead on the door swaging.
      The gaps on the doorlock side are around 2 - 3mm both sides.

      I attach photos below of the areas in question. Justin you sometimes say tell me if its boring!! I read this and you have to have a firm interest to stop going to sleep

      photo one, the nice curve with perfect hem

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      Photo two, the hem on the vertical passenger door ( RHD !!)

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      photo three, the drivers side hem vertical

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      photo 4, the passenger side door lock gap

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      photo 5, passenger door side gap notice the 3mm at the curved top

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      photo 6 the drivers side gap at the curved top

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      So, I guess I just live with it and feel envious every time I see both of your cars super gaps.

      Roy

      Comment


      • #4
        Roy
        The hem tools outside surface looks like nylon and is very smooth. Possibly with a heat gun to gently soften the caulk, and with the door off, you could tighten the hem without damaging the paint.

        Nice car!

        Phil

        Comment


        • #5
          Roy,
          Very interesting. What I think is going on here is the classic conundrum between original and restoration. In a great many cases the original is not as perfect as the restoration. The "hem" on the lower portion of your door gap appears worked over only as far as necessary to seat against the flange on the closing panel. On many cars (and you won't find two alike) this flange is not parallel to the line of the fender, but instead angles out towards the fender. When we restore a car and replace or repair the closing panel, some of us do a better job than the factory did. If Phil turned back time and told the boys at Reutter how long he spent to make those repairs and produce such a nice edge, they'd laugh at him. They could never make any money doing it like that. So, I think your edge is just fine the way it is. And I'm betting there is no caulk inside the flange, just applied on the outside.
          DG

          Comment


          • #6
            DG
            Good point about the angle of the closing panel flange. My repros had that angle, and I tried to flush the ends even with the body line best I could. Have to be careful hemming, or with the skinner or you may pull the edge of the fender into that angle. I think Roy has redone those fender ends and applied caulk when he did it. I saw no sign of factory sealant when I opened up the original hems.

            Phil

            Comment


            • #7
              No way Roy, not boring at all! In fact this is something that's in my wheelhouse versus lets say calculating engine compression ratios. To much math and way too technical for my tiny brain.

              In studying your original hem leading edge it would be very difficult to get your gaps any closer with the thickness they are now. Is your width coming from mostly the outer or inner surfaces?
              I took a quick couple of shots of mine this afternoon:
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              This is the right side looking into the forward splash pan.
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              Both sides are factory. I have not replaced or partially patched this run.
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              As poor of a job as they did on the rear gap metal work they seemed to have done slightly better up here.
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              The edge gets a bit thicker at the top to continue the line of the door but its of course out harms way as it swings open. No two ways about it, if want close gaps the edge has to remain very thin both bottom and top side. Justin
              Justin Rio

              Comment


              • #8
                Guys,

                Thanks so much for the comments. The photo's you attach Justin show your edge radius going down the vertical run is perfect compared to mine. My edge radius on my vertical run is much bigger both sides of the car. I have never lifted the hem that rests against the closing panel ( fender) It looks like they possibly applied sealant against the edge and as remarked, underneath its possibly clear of anything. To me, it looks like you could apply the skinning tool wind up the socket and it would compress the hem flat.

                But the point made by Justin makes me wonder about something. Where I did remove the factory paint to cut and weld elsewhere on the car it was never anywhere near the wired fender wells or the door shuts. Even my rockers and longitunals are original although I have re- inforced the jacking points and cut and replaced sections of the original longitudinals.
                I did though find factory lead sometimes like Justin mentions quite thick in places I was surprised with. I wonder if the leading edge of the hem has been leaded? The door comes into contact ( or just away from it ) with the back of the hemmed area. Thats why I might take a needle file to the inside area of the hem and see how thick the paint is. I know its surprising how much goes on with a few passes.

                The actual line up of door panel to front fender panel is very good and because the gapping on the door lock side is actually very good with under 3mm at the worst point I can only go forward a little anyway to improve the front.

                I think you guys are correct, the cars were produced to a great degree on the bodywork by hand. Each car was as good as the person involved. Skill varies, its not an easy job as it taken me some time to just fully understand how they went about it.

                In saying that just the bending of the hem to get the correct sweeping elipse has me wondering now, HOW WOULD I DO THAT??
                Give me a lathe, milling machine or grinder I am at home, this panel work is really something else in comparison.
                I should be happy, be pleased its mostly original and just live with it.

                Cheers Lads

                Roy

                Comment


                • #9
                  You can see the angle of the closing panel in Jason photos. The hem gets wider at it's edge as it is flush with the slightly angled closing panel edge.

                  Roy, I am a little confused. My apologies to all, as I thought I had read that you had replaced the rear of the fender and made that hem flange yourself.

                  Phil

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    yes, the hemmed edge does taper outward a bit following the approach of the splash pan. Justin
                    Justin Rio

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Roy wrote, in our almost common language; "I wonder if the leading edge of the hem has been leaded?"

                      Leading with lead is the key in this instance. The original constructors of the 356s "knew how to cheat".....mainly the clock. A final result was the prize on which to keep their eyes and many variables were factored in. Slotted holes for hinges, shims for hinges, shims for strikers and slotted striker mounting. All of those were still governed by the door's inner frame having a relatively close tolerance to the inner shell's door opening and it's seals.

                      Most jamb and door opening areas and parts were allowed overlaps, as noted on other threads, and the 'cheating' happened more as the build went from the inside, out.

                      Most edges were very smooth in dimension and curve and as tight as one piece of sheet metal can bend over another. There are always variations, but edges would get tuned in or out and some small filling or back-filling occurred with lead as needed if bumping and filing couldn't.

                      It is as said about the inner closing panel's outer return....angled or curved out to meet the fender ('wing,' in deference to Roy and other RHDers), the very last part needed to be parallel to the outer fender surface and still secured as filler in the sandwich (another Brit term?) To me, to get that edge, with it's compound curves and natural tendency to shrink, just right....is the most challenging to replace......new fender or a repair piece.

                      The front of the door or the front of the rear wing or quarterpanel was handled like this:
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                      Others have had a different approach to repair:
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bruce

                        Thanks for posting those pictures. That leading process is coming up soon for me, I hope.

                        Phil

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Those are some knarly old repairs! The sail panel looked like it was double skinned? Thanks for posting these Bruce, I'm sure you've seen it all! Justin
                          Justin Rio

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Justin, I am sure I have not seen it all, as I keep seeing things I had yet to see as time marches on. The saying "We used to have parts cars but now they are called restoration candidates" came along for a reason. The line got muddied and blurred...now it's not visible at all. Back-in-the-day I cut up many 356s that were better than those I am asked to restore now. There are people who spend 3 and 4 times what their cars are currently worth to others when finished for various reasons; 1) they are 'heirloom' cars and the starting value is considered zero, 2) they have the money and want to 'bitch-brag' to their friends that they can spend it, and 3)the auction results pump them up into believing that any 356 can be considered an 'investment.'
                            'Street rods' and 356 'outlaws' are different...'way different and I haven't figured those out yet. Crazy money on 'tribute' cars is another area I can't fathom, either. As far as I've gone, personally, is putting a VW engine in a 356 and a 356 motor in a VW.

                            The bad work as illustrated was done by a father-son team, the ONLY viable excuse for such work, 'family Bondoing.' The right door had not been 'bad' but the family tag-team stretched the skin so badly they had to beat it in. Then it was so oil-canned that they brazed a piece of strap galvanized steel bought at the hardware store inside to 'stabilize' it and sculpted an average of an inch of plastic filler onto it to 'match' that covering of the adjacent panels shown.

                            I'll dig up some more depressing pictures and post from IE, as I'm on via MF now, which let's me post words but not images.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "family Bondoing" I love it! I know what you mean and makes perfect sense. My father and I did just that in the '80's on that old coupe on which I had to go and cut it all back out. It is very interesting on what now constitutes a "nice" project car. The "parts cars" that were cut up back in the day would probably be considered a nice driver by todays standards. Justin
                              Justin Rio

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